Cheap German AA vz Zero Allied AA

[Pedro]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Pedro, we simply ran out of time. Because the Germans are most likely to be hit by aircraft, we thought it best to make their stuff first. And since all are based on just 3 different AA models (20mm, 37mm, and Quad 20mm) using vehicles already in the game (SdKfz 7 and PzIV hull) they were fairly easy to put in. We wanted to do at LEAST the M16, but simply ran out of time.

Steve

The problem is that in a QB the German player is able purchase these high power Infantry killers at a low price and the Allied player has no equal. Its getting tiring watching squads get mowed down by AA that is armored, mobile and less than 50 points. Here is an absurd but true account that happened to me.

I played a game in which a 4/20-mm AA vehicle killed 2 M18's and 2 bazooka teams all vets. One turn NINE bazooka rounds were launched at < 75 meters at the AA vehicle and all missed. The M18's were not ambushed and in fact were actively hunting the AA vehicle. Not to mention the AA vehicle took multiple sniper hits and 3-81mm mortar barrages. Is this case for bad luck? Sure, but my opponent was able to purchase this wonder weapon for a measly 46 points. The Germans have a serious advantage in smaller battles with the power of these cheap AA vehicles. The allies have no equivalent and must hope for enough points to purchase real armor or bazooka gunners that can hit something. In the future I hope some allied AA vehicle will be added. In the meantime next time I play the Germans I will get some of these babies.

Pedro

[Pak40]

It's unfortunate that BTS ran out of time. I wish they could add the M16 in a patch.

As was often the case in late WWII, the allies AA were used for infantry support because they had very few aircraft to worry about. The Germans on the other hand needed their AA for common use against air threats and therefore deployed them more in that role. (also they AA men were used to restock the infantry, but that's another topic)

Since CM greatly deals more with ground combat than air, I really hope BTS considers adding it in a patch. But, I realize there is only so much they can do before moving on to CM2.

[This message has been edited by Pak40 (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Phoenix]

Your experience with these things sure is not like mine. You seem to view them as King Tigers out there!

When I see em, they usually turn tail and run from any kind of attack more powerful than infantry, or they get waxed.

I never buy them as I find them to be too easily knocked out.

As to them being cheap? Well, they should be in my mind because for one reason they die easily. Had one of those bazooka rounds hit it would have been all over.

I think your just having bad luck with em as I don't recall anyone else making such an issue about it.

I think I'll do a QB tonight against a bunch of em!

[Guest KwazyDog]

Pedro net battle try a Stuart. They are about 10 points cheaper than the German AA vehciles, and can kill them with little chance of them hurting him.

Ive managed to kill Panthers with those little vehicles due to their speed and fast rate of fire

[Pedro]

Phoenix,

No doubt my boys were worthless that day. But the AA vehicle was one of two that were defending a village against a US probe. I was playing a human who also had two Marders in the village. Sniff-sniff. As for Stuart tanks they are more than twice the price of these AA vehicles.

Pedro

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" the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds."

[L4Pilot]

I too acutely feel the lack of certain categories of units that are available to the Axis player.

In addition to the M16 4x.50cal HT of which HPS "Encyclopedia of Land Combat" says "was extremely effective against lightly armed or soft ground targets...entered service in 1943, and served for the rest of the war with US forces in all theaters.", I would love to see the M12 155GMC SP gun included in CM. It was definitely used in a direct fire mode in some city campaigns and assaults. For me this is another case of "Axis armor envy" as the German player has the Wespe 150 SP gun.

It's my understanding that both of these vehicles were left out of CM for time reasons and have been brought up as possible candidates for a vehicle mod pack.

Oh please, oh please, oh please....

[Guest Zaraath]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L4Pilot:

I would love to see the M12 155GMC SP gun included in CM. For me this is another case of "Axis armor envy" as the German player has the Wespe 150 SP gun.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean the Hummel, the Wespe was "only" a 105mm. Is it much cheaper than an M7 Priest?

Anyway, it's my understanding that the M12 didn't have much crew protection, although I'm sure they still got used in a direct fire role when necessary. An ASL tournament scenario "Aachen's Pall" give the Americans one, my opponent almost conceded after my first M12 shot KIAed a crucial stack.

The British have a bargain weapon of their own, the Wasp. What is it, 54 points for Veteran? Easily 30 points cheaper than the German equivalent, and the only FT vehicle the Americans have is the Sherman croc, c. 250 pts.

[L4Pilot]

Yes, Zaraath is correct. I am lusting after an allied equivalent of the 150mm Hummel! And spotter planes and...

Come on, BTS! You must know some of us guys would do anything for an extra 50mm, er, 2 inches...

[This message has been edited by L4Pilot (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Phoenix]

Well Pedro, I gotta tell ya. I'm giggling a bit right now. Why? I'm playing a QB where I gave the Germans 4 of those Superweapons.

I just had two rifle squads destroy TWO of them from a range of 234 meters!!!!!!

Each squad waxed one each.

If it was possible to send you a replay I would. I can send a screen shot!

Signed - "Still not convinced their so deadly!

PS - The one squad actually BREWED UP the vehicle!!! And they didn't even use a rifle grenade! To be honest, I have no idea how they brewed the vehicle from that range. BAR hit the gas tank?

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Pedro]

Laugh it up Phoenix! The AI is no match. You dodged that AA vehicle masterfully amidst bazooka teams and Hellcats. That's why I can't play the computer AI anymore it's no match for a human.

Pedro

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" the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds."

[Phoenix]

It outlines my point quite clearly Pedro. These things are not armored menaces. They are sitting ducks.

[Tanaka]

"These things are not armored menaces. They are sitting ducks."

hmmm... I don't think so...

In the new patch the SdKfz 7/1 (or any other unarmored vehicle) flees more, but that can't make us forget a known game limitation...

Unarmored vehicles can't be destroyed by an AP/C round, even if a zook fires to these vehicles is using it's blast (6) to destroy them, also, when a Tank fires to these vehicles is using HE rounds... So a Stuart for example is a very bad Tank to chose to engage this kind of targets, effectively the only weapon it has against them is the MG...

So, Pedro, use HMG or Art fire to destroy these unarmored vehicles

PS- All this talk only apply to Unarmored vehicles... not for instances the Ostwind

[Guest KwazyDog]

"As for Stuart tanks they are more than twice the price of these AA vehicles."

Oh, you mean the AA half tracks then, not the Wirbelwind and ostwind as mentioned above Pedro. The Stuart is actually cheaper than those, at least in the 1.1 patch they are.

I dont think the half track AA guns are much of a threat as the tracked AA guns, their crews are much more vulnerable to small arms fire and tend to be very sensitive to artillery.

[Subvet]

I never really used these AA halftracks before so I thought I'd give them a try after reading this thread earlier. LOL, these things were a waste of points. American rifle squads took these things out at long range with ease. One was brewed up and the other knocked out within seconds of being spotted by American infantry. I'm not saying it isn't true about them causing havoc in the particular game that was talked about in the beginning of this thread. I just don't think that that is at all typical. They were useless in the game I used them in.

[Phoenix]

Hmm...after all these months it's not until now I read that units firing AP can't destroy unarmored vehicles.

Is this for real? If so.....why?

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Subvet:

I never really used these AA halftracks before so I thought I'd give them a try after reading this thread earlier. LOL, these things were a waste of points. American rifle squads took these things out at long range with ease. One was brewed up and the other knocked out within seconds of being spotted by American infantry. I'm not saying it isn't true about them causing havoc in the particular game that was talked about in the beginning of this thread. I just don't think that that is at all typical. They were useless in the game I used them in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try 8 SdKfz 7/1s with 10 75mm recoilless rifles then see how your infantry does against them... against a human player.

A quad 20mm on a halftrack has got to be worth more than 46 points, regardless of armor I would think.

In a quick battle you can cherry pick: The sdkfz 7/1 and 7/2; spw 250/9; 75mm recoilless rifle; 75mm sIG; 20mm AA gun; they all have good firepower at a low price. If you get enough of these types of weapons firing at the same time, it doesn't matter what their armored protection is.

The U.S. has the M8 HMC and the M3A1 halftrack.

In combat effectiveness:

M3A1 > SPW 251/1

In cost:

SPW 251/1 > M3A1

The M8 HMC is the best assault gun in the game for 58 points.

The plain Jeep should be about 7 points. It shouldn't cost anywhere near the Jeep .50.

There are definitely disparities in the price list - at least in my opinion, and in the opinion of someone else I know who plays CMBO.

The Stuart should be about 85 points. The Greyhound about 70. The Puma and 234/1 should both be cheaper, probably 70 and 50 points, respectively. The 234/3 seems about right as it is at 67.

The Tiger 1 is overpriced; in my experience it simply doesn't perform. The Panther seems to be the best German tank in the game for the price. The Panther 75mm is an almost a-u-t-o-matic kill against allied armor.

The American 37mm is too good against the Panzer IV at close ranges (inside 250m).

The StuG is always preferable to the Panzer IV from the price/performance dynamic.

I think that the price list needs to be tweaked. The problem is that the 'combat value' of a unit is dependent upon the situation. Some units are deadly in the heavy fog but sitting ducks out in 2kilometer firing lanes.

A dynamic 'combat value-based' price list; one where each unit type's price fluctuated with the terrain and weather conditions of the battle about to be fought; now that would be the ideal.

Then for the historians, flip on the 'rarity' switch and see the values of the units based upon their historical rarity.

Also if you could 'batch' set the ammo amounts in the editor - you know, group select.

Also in the editor the artillery ammo interface needs multiples of 10 or more. How about some edit boxes where the designer could type in the amount of ammo?

whew

Andy

[Wilhammer]

I feel slighted, unintenional or not, that Allied AA vehicles are omitted.

As for playing them with the Germans, I have tremendous success with them.

The key is to know when to use them. I tend to keep them in reserve, only to commit them into a situation in which I am administering the coup de gras (SP?). They are excellent.

Right now, I have used a Wirblewind (the 20mm quad PzIV) as a defense tool for my weary attackers who took a well defended position. The bastards staged an overwhelming counter attack, but my WW stopped it dead in concert with the HMGs I moved in and the weary platoon. Then, I advanced a couple of squads, a HMG and the WW in concert in pursuit and have crushed them. The WW then fast moved to another sector and has helped shift the balance in a sector on the other side of the map. A close battle that was tipped ever so slighly in my favor by the WW support.

As for not having the time, well I see plenty of German HT variants and essentially one Allied, except for the love affair someone had with the Bren/Universal carrier, we have variants there.

A great game none the less.

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix:

Hmm...after all these months it's not until now I read that units firing AP can't destroy unarmored vehicles.

Is this for real? If so.....why?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hrm, actually, looks like I was wrong. Set up a test map with Daimler firing at Kubelwagens. In 15 turns the Daimler wound up with 10 kills...all from its MG. So yeah, I'd say something's a bit buggy there.

It looks like what's happening is that the unarmored vehicles don't have different "hit locations" as armored vehicles do, so the shots aren't actually hitting the vehicles. With no blast rating, the AP shot is just burying itself in the ground around the vehicles.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Subvet]

I think maybe it's easier to kill soft vehicles with HE vs AP, especially with large calibre rounds. That's the way it was in ASL if I remember correctly. With a large HE shell you don't have to hit the target to kill it, but with AP you do, so it makes some sense. Now if you can't kill them with AP at all, that would be wrong.

[Subvet]

Well, I just went and tested this for myself. It's true that there seems to be a problem. I put 10 trucks on a map and edited a Marder III to only carry AP rounds. It took ALOT of AP rounds to kill just one truck. Pretty much every round was a hit too. It can be done, but it seems out of wack. It's harder than what would seem to be realistic to knock out a truck with a 75mm AP round.

[This message has been edited by Subvet (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Subvet]

Screwed up the edit, here it is.

Edit: I tried getting really close to the trucks (about 10m) and that seemed to make a huge difference. You can knock them out with one or two shots from close range. Still though, it seems a bit too hard to kill them at any realistic range with AP.

[This message has been edited by Subvet (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Thermopylae]

I would imagine the AP is travellingat a high velocity, and that the real point of it is to punch through armor, and then explode. Against a truck its more than lielky just going to leave an appropriate caliber hole, because its gonna punch out the other side before it explodes. While in the engine block, sure its gonna stop the truck, but a chunk of superstructure shot away isn't going to hurt much.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thermopylae:

I would imagine the AP is travellingat a high velocity, and that the real point of it is to punch through armor, and then explode. Against a truck its more than lielky just going to leave an appropriate caliber hole, because its gonna punch out the other side before it explodes. While in the engine block, sure its gonna stop the truck, but a chunk of superstructure shot away isn't going to hurt much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Thermopylae has got it right here. If you look at the effect of AP on armour plate (I have seen that at Bovington Tank Museum), you see that there is a lot of spalling when the solid and high-speed object that is an AP round is suddenly stopped by a thick piece of metal, and the bits will ricochet around inside the tank. If there is no armour to stop it, you pretty much rely on the very small round to hit something vital, which may be difficult with a truck. Shaped/hollow charges as far as I understand them also use the actual armour plate to create most of the destruction, by melting the armour and jetting it into the crew compartment. If there is no armour to work on, the effect is quite small, I would think. Look at the explosion an 88mm HE shell creates when fired at a squad, and at the explosion an 88mm Panzerschreck warhead creates. Very much smaller. The best way to get rid of the unarmoured AA trucks is to sweep the gun deck with rifle/automatic weapon fire. There may be another discussion here on whether the gun crews should break faster. From the pictures I have seen, they are not under a whole lot of cover, and the back of the truck is a great target, quite different from the same gun dug into a foxhole. So, unless I understand the way AP and shaped charges work, I would not havea problem with the low kill probability of the same against unarmoured vehicles.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. little

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Pedro]

There are definitely disparities in the price list - at least in my opinion, and in the opinion of someone else I know who plays CMBO.

The Stuart should be about 85 points. The Greyhound about 70. The Puma and 234/1 should both be cheaper, probably 70 and 50 points, respectively. The 234/3 seems about right as it is at 67.

Grunto,

You have opened an entirely new can of worms! It deserves its own post........stand by.

Pedro

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" the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds."

[Tanaka]

Germanboy,

When you fire at an incoming SdKfz, all you can hit is the engine and the crew compartment... When you aim at a passing SdKfz the major structures you can hit is Engine, crew compartment and the "big" quad gun... of course you could be unlucky and hit none of these points, and in that case no critical damage would be done...

Let's see the odds...

Incoming SdKfz --> 70%chance of hit the motor compartment (the zook is 1/2 m of the ground)

Passing SdKfz --> Let's give it 20% chance of hitting the motor 30% chance of hitting the gun

As you can see in the 1st case there is a 70% chance of an AP/C round do some damage and in the 2nd case there is a 50% chance of damage... Do have in mind that this unscientific calculation don't have in account that the zook gunner could aim specifically to these points

So I think that AP/C damage in unarmored vehicles is something to have in mind for CM2 and on

PS-again... English is not my 1st language