Non-combat troops and vehicles

[Tory the Magnus]

Hey all, this is my first post and my first visit so I hope I am not covering old ground here.

I have had TacOps for about 3 months now and have played it quite a bit but their are still a couple of things that I don't get and that I can't find answers too in the extensive manuals.

I am stumped as to the purpose of non-combat vehicles and units such as ambulances, medics, fuel and ammunitions trucks, etc. Now I know they exist in a real battlefield but if they don't serve an active purpose I would have thought that they would have been assumed rather than gamed. So am I missing something and do ambulances and fuel trucks provide some vital role or are they just their for looks?

Also, on a somewhat related topic, how do you do logistics packages?

Any and all help is appreciated, thankyou.

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

Feel free to delete the logistics units during the scenario set up turn.

Most of the non-combat items were added at the request or direction of military users who wanted a more complete order of battle for group training exercises. For example, the Canadian scenarios are especially full of logistics units because the Canadian Army paid me to add those scenarios and they specified exactly what was to be in them.

>Also, on a somewhat related topic, how do you do logistics packages?

User Guide, Section 20.1 Logistics. A transportable, user defined, Logistics Package marker can also be added to a scenario by using the Options/Add One Unit menu item. The Logistics Package marker can be used to resupply any unit that is located within 200 meters. The Supply Window is also used to access the supply points that are in a Logistics Package.

User Guide, Section 6.6 Supply Unit Button and Supply Window. The Supply Unit button in the Unit Orders Window summons a window that may allow you to replace expended ammunition. Choose the source of resupply by check marking either the Conceptual Button or the Logistics Package Button. Conceptual resupply is drawn from the force supply points as defined by the scenario. Logistics package resupply is drawn from a Logistics Package marker located on the map. If the Logistics Package Button is selected, the user will also be asked to select a Logistics Package marker from the map that is located within 200 meters of the unit.

User Guide, Appendix G – Special Units, Special Capabilities, Section 7 Logistics Package. A transportable, user defined, Logistics Package marker can be added to a scenario by using the Options/Add One Unit menu item. The Logistics Package marker can be used to resupply any unit that is located within 200 meters. The Unit Supply Window is used to access the supply points that are in a Logistics Package. To open the Unit Supply Window click on the Supply button in the Unit Orders Window. When the Supply Window appears, check mark the Logistics Package box. You will then be asked to select a Logistics Package marker from the map that is located within 200 meters of the unit. If the resupply is successful, the logistics marker will be reduced by the number of points taken by the unit. If a logistics marker is reduced to zero supply points it will be automatically deleted. Logistics Package markers can be destroyed by enemy direct and indirect fire.

[Tory the Magnus]

Thanks for that Major, TacOps is a great game.

So I gather that HQ units such as Ops and CSS where also placed in the game at the request of military organisations or do they actually serve some purpose?

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

HQs units have no special characteristics in TacOps.

[dhuffjr]

Of course there are some diehards out there (like me) who are attracted to TacOps because of this high level of detail. If you want to shoot and destroy everything and ignore the realities of "the other stuff" that a battalion would bring along you can do it with TacOps. It also allows you to include the HQ elements and the logistic tail of a unit to see what element that adds to the battlefield. It is also an added element to attempt to recover mobility damaged vehicles and if added in umpire mode recover battlefield casualties.

[Tory the Magnus]

Its not that I don't want the ambulances, medics, fuel trucks, etc. It's just that since they don't actually perform any active role in the game I don't see the point. What is the point of having ambulances and medics when their aren't any casulties to take care of? What is the point of having the fuel trucks if your vehicles don't run out of fuel? And so on and so forth. You can't keep track of the number of kilometres that your vehicles have done, and casulties don't appear on the map so you can't really even simulate it yourself. So I don't see how it can add an element that isn't represented in the game. If the game simulated your vehicles running out of fuel, or had casulties appear on the battlefield then I would most certainly turn that option on, but unfortunately it doesn't in the civillian version at any rate.

I always try and exit damaged/immobilised vehicles and infantry squads that are almost dead if I am able to. So now that I know that you can turn battle field casulties on I will most certainly play with that option on in the future.

I wonder, Major H, are there any plans to introduce such effects as fuel and morale in later versions of the game? Morale is a big thing for me because it has always struck me as strange in my games of TacOps how squads that are decimated, facing enemies they cannot destroy or are cut off will never run or surrender but die fighting to the last man. I would have thought that things such as this would be almost compulsory in any military simulator and that armed forces would have requested that these option be put in place.

[ January 19, 2004, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: Tory the Magnus ]

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

> are there any plans to introduce such effects as fuel and

> morale in later versions of the game?

Both are on the wish list though what you probably mean by morale is on the list under "variable efficiency". Neither has a priority right now.

> Morale is a big thing for me because it has always struck me

> as strange in my games of TacOps how squads that are

> decimated, facing enemies they cannot destroy or are cut

> off will never run or surrender but die fighting to the

> last man.

Units in contact get smaller over time until they disappear from game play. Who says that is due only to troops being killed?

>I would have thought that things such as this would be almost compulsory

>in any military simulator and that armed forces would have requested that

>these option be put in place.

I would add more morale and variable proficiency details to TacOps if someone paid me to do so and if they provided all of the detailed specifications. So far no one has been seriously interested in financing or providing useful specifications for such an addition.

[dhuffjr]

Originally posted by Tory the Magnus:

[QB] Its not that I don't want the ambulances, medics, fuel trucks, etc. It's just that since they don't actually perform any active role in the game I don't see the point.

I would say that the point is that they exist in the real world and not to include them is not realistic. Even as low as at the company level their are a couple of HMMWV's and a medium truck or two. This HQ element would be in close proximity to the company in battle. Figuring out what to do with them (ie how to protect them) is part of the planning that a company commander would have to do.

For larger games with larger HQ elements they represent a viable target for the OPFOR artillery and penetrating forces to go after.

[QB]What is the point of having ambulances and medics when their aren't any casulties to take care of? So now that I know that you can turn battle field casulties on I will most certainly play with that option on in the future.

This is not an option to be turned on. I was refering to engaging the Umpire mode and adding individual infantry markers (I use MP's or civilian markers) to represent the surviving crew members. I have not noticed any markers representing a vehicle crew surviving a brew up. The major will have to correct me if I have just overlook something.

Obviously this is how I choose to play TacOps. Again this is the beauty of the game. You can use it to just represent the combat elements, or to represent the entire unit with the support elements included. It is up to individual tastes and needs.

Dennis Huff

[Coyote]

Originally posted by Tory the Magnus:

Its not that I don't want the ambulances, medics, fuel trucks, etc. It's just that since they don't actually perform any active role in the game I don't see the point....

In a solitare game, there is no point unless you deliberately establish one that uses these units. Against a human opponent, the point is whatever you agree it is. The currently running TacOps tournament includes a scenario in which evacuation of the non-combat elements is critical to mission success. I know because I just lost HALF OF THEM!

Everything in TacOps is there because someone wanted it but that doesn't mean you have to use it. Flexibility is one of the things that makes TacOps so great.

Enjoy,

Gary

[ January 20, 2004, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Coyote ]

[tar]

About the only problem these units present is that they might temp some players to use them as scouts since they don't have any combat value and could thus be considered more "expendable" than a fighting unit. Especially in the recon-by-explosion role.

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

Very good point.

[Tory the Magnus]

I have never heard of this recon-by-explosion thing but I gather it is frowned upon.

Also I did not know that their where online TacOp's tournaments. I have read the CPX posts but didn't really know what they where about, although I do know that CPX stands for Command Post Exercise. So could someone tell me where I could get more information about these tournaments of give me some more information on them? I gather that they take quite a bit of time considering that the average game of TacOp's takes about 3 hours or so.

[Coyote]

Originally posted by Tory the Magnus:

So could someone tell me where I could get more information about these tournaments of give me some more information on them?

rattler set it up and keeps it somewhat organized [are you familiar with the phrase "like herding cats"?]

You will find a number of posts from him on this forum, ususally with TT2003 as the subject.

The tourament has its own mailing list as well.

Go to the "official" site at - http://eventfoto.com/privat/mil/tourney2003/main.html

Enjoy,

Coyote

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Tory the Magnus:

I wonder, Major H, are there any plans to introduce such effects as fuel and morale in later versions of the game? Morale is a big thing for me because it has always struck me as strange in my games of TacOps how squads that are decimated, facing enemies they cannot destroy or are cut off will never run or surrender but die fighting to the last man. I would have thought that things such as this would be almost compulsory in any military simulator and that armed forces would have requested that these option be put in place.

Having played a lot of Combat Mission I have to say it is too much of a task to model troop behaviour around breaking point.

Combat Mission tries to do two things:

1) automatically trying to get to safety (where TacOps units just stop). Open any random thread on the CM forums and you have a huge chance of players complaining that the algorithm chosen is by far too braindead. While it might not be realistic that troops just stay put, the thing CM introduced makes it even worse.

2) model troops that are bejond breaking point. They run somewhere and might later ralley and be back in the fight. In CM this is not as horribly implemented as 1), but it lead to a huge chain of things that needed patching up in addition. My favourite item was that since foxhole space is limited in CM, a single survivor of a tank crew would run back to safety, which means cover, chooses a foxhole in the back. The 75mm AT gun which was in the hole would then be "pushed out" and leave the place.

I much prefer the TacOps way where infantry stops under heavy fire, stays put no matter what and when it's too bad they are out of the rest of the scenario.

I am sure armed forced customers would never want what CM has, it is really a game element, not a simulation element, and the bad implementation makes the realism improvement highly questionable.

[Rattler]

Originally posted by Tory the Magnus:

Also I did not know that their where online TacOp's tournaments. I have read the CPX posts but didn't really know what they where about, although I do know that CPX stands for Command Post Exercise. So could someone tell me where I could get more information about these tournaments of give me some more information on them? I gather that they take quite a bit of time considering that the average game of TacOp's takes about 3 hours or so.

Below are the main TT2003 (the TacOps Tourney currently running, they go 2 years to the final game) pages, you might want tto check them out.

The reserve player list has currently melted away as all reserve players entered the tourney due to some drop outs, so I am more than glad to note any new reserves just in case.

Kind regards,

Rattler

TacOps Tourney Main Page: http://eventfoto.com/privat/mil/tourney2003/main.html

TacOps Tourney Standings Page: http://eventfoto.com/privat/mil/tourney2003/standings.html

Scheduled TacOps Tourney Games: http://eventfoto.com/privat/mil/tourney2003/cal.html