Unkillable M8 HMC?

[willmontgomery]

My opponent has an M8 HMC driving around. We are using version 1.05. Two different 'schreck teams have scored three hits on this particular vehicle, all reported as "front turret penetration", none of them kills. Now anything that can happen once can happen three times running, but each additional time it happens the likelihood shrinks that it is just "bad luck". Does the M8 HMC have a special characteristic so that it is less likely to be killed by a front turret penetration than other vehicles? Could this be (dare I say it) a bug? I don't know the expected frequency of non-killing penetrations. At 5% this is a one-in-eight-thousand event and probably just bad luck. At 1%, this is a one-in-a-million event and looking more like there is probably another explanation.

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"C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre."

[MacMogul]

I tend to think there might be something special about the M8, as I hit one with 4 50mm AT rounds in a recent PBEM with the results of one track hit, two penetrations (at least one to the turret) and a final kill shot.

Color me curious, too.

--Bill

[Maximus]

See my "One bloody tough M4A1(76)" thread.

I hit one of those 3 times with a Tiger's 88mm cannon and it still lived to EXPLODE my Tiger in one hit. 2 hits were track hits, the third was a front penetration in the hull I think and it survived.

[willmontgomery]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

See my "One bloody tough M4A1(76)" thread.

I hit one of those 3 times with a Tiger's 88mm cannon and it still lived to EXPLODE my Tiger in one hit. 2 hits were track hits, the third was a front penetration in the hull I think and it survived.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seen it and replied to it (back when I had only two non-killing penetrations). My point here is three NON-KILLING PENETRATIONS on one vehicle in one battle. On your thread someone speculates that non-killing penetrations amount to 1% or 2% of all penetrations. That estimate may or may not be accurate, but if it is we're looking at a 1-in-125,000 to 1-in-1,000,000 event. At some point one is forced to stop putting it down to bad luck and start looking for another explanation. I am not in a position to generate an informed opinion about whether that point has been reached, and hence my post. People may say, "Well, non-killing penetrations constitute a somewhat surprising percentage of all penetrations." Or they may say, "Now that you mention it, I too have had a seemingly aberrant number of non-killing penetrations against M8 HMCs." Or maybe BTS will comment. I'm sure they're tired of people crying "Bug!" whenever something odd happens, so I want to emphasize that I am not sufficiently informed to have an opinion about whether this is or is not due to chance. In fact, that is why I started this thread in the first place, to collect information.

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"C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre."

[Guest Pillar]

They are indeed a pain in the ass for a german player. Three times now I've played games where I've slaughtered all enemy AFV's but the M8 HMC's live right until the end, causing mischief wherever they go.

[109 Gustav]

If you still believe this is a bug, then you should test it out. On a flat map, give yourself 20 or so shrecks, and the AI an equal number of M8s. Count the number of front turret hits, and how many hits KO the tank and how many don't do any damage. Then, if your findings support your theory of a bug, and you test this again a few times, you may have found a real one. Until then, I'd have to say it's just random chance.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[russellmz]

there are 50mm antitank guns off screen.

one tank had one track hit(immobilized), one pen, one kill shot.

two or three tanks took two hits.

the three hit tank took one from a shreck and two from a 50mm pak

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

See my "One bloody tough M4A1(76)" thread.

I hit one of those 3 times with a Tiger's 88mm cannon and it still lived to EXPLODE my Tiger in one hit. 2 hits were track hits, the third was a front penetration in the hull I think and it survived.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

u bitter? what about me:

puma scout CAR, buttoned, rolling backwards hits my sherm in the front turrent on the first shot and kills it. freaking 50mm gun i think...

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[This message has been edited by russellmz (edited 12-07-2000).]

[Kingfish]

Yeah, well I once hit a Kubelwagon with a 14" naval round. It landed in the driver's lap and the damn thing still kept going! Top that.

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Frag Hanoi Jane

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My point here is three NON-KILLING PENETRATIONS on one vehicle in one battle. On your thread someone speculates that non-killing penetrations amount to 1% or 2% of all penetrations. That estimate may or may not be accurate, but if it is we're looking at a 1-in-125,000 to 1-in-1,000,000 event.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m not sure where the speculation regarding non-killing penetrations amounting to only 1% or 2% of all penetrations is coming from or what it is based on (if anything). I can’t find the thread you are referring to either (not that I looked that hard). The British Army Operational Research Section No. 2 conducted studies on just this subject in Normandy. They concluded that the average number of penetrations to knock out a Sherman was 1.55. Number of penetration required to KO a MkV was 1.9. KT (based upon a limited sample) was 2.6. This would seemingly suggest something much higher 1 in 1,000,000.

I think if you do a tad bit of digging on this subject for North African Tank battles you will also be surprised by the number of penetrations German AFV were able to shrug off and remain operational. In my opinion much of this was attributable to British armored piercing ammunition. Brits employed solid shot throughout the war, and seemed to have an aversion to APCBC.

[aka_tom_w]

In the "one bloody tough Sherman M3A1(76)" thread I (perhaps foolishly) speculated:

"

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus:

Tiger fired and got *another* track hit. Sherman fired and got a ricochet hit. Tiger

fired again, getting a penetration hit (don't remember where) but not a KO. !

To be fair to the game the Tiger fired its forth shot and Hit AND penetrated and was then cursed with the

extreme poor luck (I guess that was akin to rolling snake eyes twice) of the "penetration without result" I

know these very are rare but that's probably where the really bad luck part came in.

that penetration without result is rare, hopefully 1 or 2% rare like the weak spot frontal armour

penetration,

STILL a little BAD luck goes a LONG way in this game."

This was based on my GUESS that if weak spot frontal armour penetrations are in the 1% to 2% range then MAYBE a "penetration without result" chance or percentage may also be in the 1% to 2% odds range.

ALL of this is JUST a guess and wild speculation on my part.

I do recall one of the readme's on one of the updates 1.02? 1.03 or 1.04? included a reference to make the chance of a "penetration without result" even lower than it was originally.

ALL guess work on my part.

-tom w

[willmontgomery]

testing...testing...

[Olle Petersson]

Recently in a small battle I performed hotseat with myself, I had some German small mortars knock out M8s by direct hits in the turret, no problem.

Heat rounds are less effective against open topped vehicles, since most of the pressure that otherwise cause lethal lung damage to the crew is ventilated.

Regular penetrators will also need to actually hit something vital on the inside to cause damage.

A test carried out in Sweden ca 1950 with 37mm APDS against an armour plate set up to be equivalent to the side armour of an IS-2, or possibly a T-34/85. At 100m straight from the side, the shot penetrated without problem, but then dropped dead directly behind the plate. How much damage would this have caused to a tank or it's crew?

Then there's the other possibility, more common with lightly skinned vehicles; penetration straight through, with a negligable amount of splinters torn off from the thin armour. Here also a direct kill is improbable.

Cheers

Olle

[TR12]

I just killed one at 85m, first shot witha MKIV.

[109 Gustav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Then there's the other possibility, more common with lightly skinned vehicles; penetration straight through, with a negligable amount of splinters torn off from the thin armour. Here also a direct kill is improbable.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone on the board (I don't remember, and a search didn't work,) mentioned that their relative was a Stuart driver. They were rounding a bend in a road, and came upon an 88. The 88 fired. Needless to say, the Stuart got the hell out of there. Later, the driver commented on how lucky they were that the 88 had missed. The tank commander took him up into the turret, and showed him the two holes in the turret- one going in, the other going out.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Head Mahone]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

Yeah, well I once hit a Kubelwagon with a 14" naval round. It landed in the driver's lap and the damn thing still kept going! Top that.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd have to see that to believe it! Sorry man that's ridiculous, what version where you running?

-Head Mahone

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I am going, where streams of whiskey are flowing! -Shane MacGowan, The Pogues

[Croda]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TR12:

I just killed one at 85m, first shot witha MKIV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, I wonder who THAT belonged to!

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