Pham911 Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 On pages 50 and 51 of the manual it says that squads need to be in command to target ambush markers. I tested this, and it's true, they get a red line and can't target the marker if not in command. However, they can, while in command of one HQ, target an ambush marker set by another HQ or by a team(or tank or gun). So, you can have the following situation I discovered: Squad A targets Team B's ambush marker. Squad A's headquarters unit has no LOS to the marker that they just targeted. This doesn't figure, because if they need to be in command to target the marker, wouldn't the HQ need LOS to the target to give them the ambush orders? Otherwise, if they can target it without HQ seeing where they're targeting, why would they need to be in command at all? They're acting independantly of the HQ, just as if they had been out of command. Also, units can target a marker while in command, then have the HQ either get killed or move away, and the ambush still stays in place, even without the HQ's being in command range. Once again, the units are acting independantly during an ambush. Am I way off the mark here, or does this not seem right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham911: Also, units can target a marker while in command, then have the HQ either get killed or move away, and the ambush still stays in place, even without the HQ's being in command range. Once again, the units are acting independantly during an ambush. Am I way off the mark here, or does this not seem right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are way off. If my Lieutenant said, "Target this bush for an ambush", he can simply move away, but this bush is still there and so I target it. Fred ------------------ "I got signals, I got readings, in front and behind of us!" - PFC Hudson on LV-426 mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Anyone else run out of ambush markers on a big scenario where you are the defender? It has happened to me a couple of times now and I am having difficulty rationalizing it ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted September 22, 2000 Author Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred: You are way off. If my Lieutenant said, "Target this bush for an ambush", he can simply move away, but this bush is still there and so I target it. Fred <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, but why can't you do it if out of proper command? There would be a delay like the movement delay for units out of command, but the message would still get to you just as if a movement order was passed down. The real issue I have isn't ambushing out of command, but rather restricting it one way and not the other(out of command vs. out of sight). I got the impression from the manual that the ambush was a controled situation in CM that needed leadership. If all it needs is for the HQ to tell the unit to target something that it(the HQ) can or can't see, then it seems like it should be allowed for out of command units too, as we're now talking about a standing order and not a continuous presence by the HQ(who will trigger the ambush when the enemy hits the marker). [This message has been edited by Pham911 (edited 09-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted September 22, 2000 Author Share Posted September 22, 2000 Ack! I replied to myself. Ignore this [This message has been edited by Pham911 (edited 09-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 On a related issue to what the PhlimPhlam Man is talking about.. I run up a HQ and put a 'bush down. I then target that 'bush with a tank that is way on back. Is dis be gamey or just making a good tactical play? I also put a self'bush from a tank down at 300 meters away and put da tank in da reversem gears. I can then ambush a tank or sumpin far and away. have a goo'day! Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Lusername, what is your point? Just a little trolling? Fred ------------------ "I got signals, I got readings, in front and behind of us!" - PFC Hudson on LV-426 mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 I think his point is there are multiple (possible) inconsistanties in the way ambushes are handled...I think. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Scott, an ambush is a powerful tool to annihilate a superior force, so there must be some restrictions in using ambushes. To be in Command is just a restriction that simply works! Assuming that all HQs have radios (as all tanks), there is no problem to target an ambush that was set by an infantry HQ. Does it work in the game? Yes. So there is no inherent inconsistency in my opinion. No need to fix something that is not broken... Fred ------------------ "I got signals, I got readings, in front and behind of us!" - PFC Hudson on LV-426 mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred: Lusername, what is your point? Just a little trolling? Fred <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just a little fun Freddy. Dont get ya bloomies in a knot.. Dont pontificate about ambushes to Mr Clinton.. he ambushed Fionn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted September 22, 2000 Author Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred: Scott, an ambush is a powerful tool to annihilate a superior force, so there must be some restrictions in using ambushes. To be in Command is just a restriction that simply works! Assuming that all HQs have radios (as all tanks), there is no problem to target an ambush that was set by an infantry HQ. Does it work in the game? Yes. So there is no inherent inconsistency in my opinion. No need to fix something that is not broken... Fred <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Even though this wasn't a response to me directly, I feel the need to clarify something. I'm not asking that ambushes be opened up to out of command units, rather that ambushes be limited to the ambush marker that the units HQ set up so that there can't be targeting of a panzerschreck's marker by a squad who's HQ is out of sight over a hill and similar situations. I think it's too powerful right now, and unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 I thought it was GWBush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham911: I'm not asking that ambushes be opened up to out of command units, rather that ambushes be limited to the ambush marker that the units HQ set up so that there can't be targeting of a panzerschreck's marker by a squad who's HQ is out of sight over a hill and similar situations. I think it's too powerful right now, and unrealistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with this part of the argument about ambushes. I think infantry squads should only be able to target their own HQ's marker. That they can do otherwise is just beacuse every ambush marker is identical once it is placed without any regard to ownership. However, I would say that any unit capable of placing an ambush marker (HQs, tanks, AT guns, etc.) should have the ability to target any ambush marker. Why? Ambushes (when properly done, at least) are coordinated between several different units. Just yesterday I sent an article off to Madmatt about setting up AT ambushes in CM. Once (if?) he posts it, I think my point will be a lot clearer. ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 (How to put this politely...) Buzz off Lewis. There was no need to 'ambush' him; it was just a matter of time. But then again if you believe his rhetoric, I am the embodiment of Satan himself. As for using an ambush in CM, I have no real gripes at all. I was just trying to clarify the cryptic remarks of Lewis, more aptly my impressions of them. Sorry I bothered now. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 09-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 OK Scott but please dont cut and paste my emails to you into threads here ever again. You didnt ask permission and you broke a bond of trust. Didnt matter that you didnt say it was from me. My words are my words. However inane. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 You are too much! YOU are the one that took my email, cut items of it out of context and sent that to Fionn with the sole purpose of stirring up trouble! Or do you now pretend this did not happen??? I removed all references to you by name, then posted the entire email because he was pissed off and ranting in public. I did this in a (vain) attempt to defuse the situation and show him the context of the message where YOU accused him of stalking you! Christ, do you really believe all this? Or do the opinions the people on this forum, people you will never meet, hold that much sway in your pitiful little life that you have to lie? I refuse to continue this lame attempt at a flame-fest with you Lewis. I now bow-out of this thread entirely. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Ok, to get a little bit back on subject. The article I mentioned in an earlier post is now available. It's not at CMHQ, but was graciously posted by Michlos at his website: http://www.combat-mission.com/ There are two parts, a Tactics article and an AAR. Any comments are certainly welcome! ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Unless it has to do with the way Ambushes occur IN THE GAME, then please refrain from posting about it here. There have been more than enough threads locked up over this same ground, no need to retread upon it. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Scott said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anyone else run out of ambush markers on a big scenario where you are the defender?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, in Sherbrooke Fusiliers. What I found most annoying about it is that you can't cancel an ambush marker. So if you start on one flank of your position and run out before you reach the other flank, you can't go back and use less ambushes. You have to just un-target some of them and HOPE you pick the right ones. Then next turn, any un-targeted ambush markers are gone and you can finish on the other flank. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am having difficulty rationalizing it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree, it is a problem not amenable to a realworld explanation. 1 grunt battalion with its expected compliment of AT support weapons and attached AT assets can create at least 30% more ambush markers than the game currently allows at 1 ambush per officer/AT weapon. And because each AT weapon/HQ can create multiple ambush markers in the same turn, you can QUICKLY run over the limit if you spread your fires out in a logical manner. Wonder why there is such a low limit? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think his point is there are multiple (possible) inconsistanties in the way ambushes are handled<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you're right. An ambush marker is an ambush marker in CM, regardless of what type of unit created it. So I can use a zook to create ambush markers for squads, for example. To be consistant, grunt squads should only be able to target ambushes set by their platoon HQ, although 1 HQ should still be able to set multiple ambushes to assign each squad a sector of fire, if so desired. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted September 22, 2000 Author Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt: Unless it has to do with the way Ambushes occur IN THE GAME, then please refrain from posting about it here. There have been more than enough threads locked up over this same ground, no need to retread upon it. Madmatt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Matt, please quote when chewing people out, as it isn't clear if you're talking to me, Lewis, or Intelweenies post right before yours(I'm assuming it's Lewis as that's the only part that has been off topic in this thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 I'd like to see an option in AMBUSH like AMBUSH ARMOR or AMBUSH INFANTRY. I'd like a little more control over what they fire at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Hi Pham, Matt's comments were obviously (at least to me anyway) designed go keep this thread on topic. Your question is perfectly fine and the discussion that is directly related to it is fine too. The other BS is not welcome. The C&C part of Ambushing is simulating coordination of units to whack anything that comes upon the designated location. The HQ shouldn't need to have LOS to the location in order for this to work. First of all, remember that C&C is itself abstracted. Nearly all communication between squads and platoon HQ was done using runners or other direct communication (hand signals etc.). So think of it this way. The Platoon HQ knows a general area to put down an ambush and communicates that to the squads/teams under his command. Basically, the HQ is issuing the orders for an ambush and does not have to be johnny on the spot to oversee it. Er... hope that makes sense Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: I removed all references to you by name, then posted the entire email because he was pissed off and ranting in public<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well As long as you admit to that, I guess I forgive you. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted September 23, 2000 Author Share Posted September 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Hi Pham, Matt's comments were obviously (at least to me anyway) designed go keep this thread on topic. Your question is perfectly fine and the discussion that is directly related to it is fine too. The other BS is not welcome. The C&C part of Ambushing is simulating coordination of units to whack anything that comes upon the designated location. The HQ shouldn't need to have LOS to the location in order for this to work. First of all, remember that C&C is itself abstracted. Nearly all communication between squads and platoon HQ was done using runners or other direct communication (hand signals etc.). So think of it this way. The Platoon HQ knows a general area to put down an ambush and communicates that to the squads/teams under his command. Basically, the HQ is issuing the orders for an ambush and does not have to be johnny on the spot to oversee it. Er... hope that makes sense Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, that makes sense now. I wasn't even thinking about the HQ's functions being abstracted. But why can't they target when out of C&C if it's abstract and done with runners, etc? (Just curious about this, as the movement orders can be given when out of command. Is it because it's beyond the scope of hand signals and such to tell someone where to ambush, whereas for movement it would be pretty easy to use signs for it?) And, as for the Matt thingy, I was confused about who it was directed at and *almost* posted a nasty message before deciding to re-read his comment and see if there was another way to interperate it(which there was, and I'm glad I re-read it). It would have been much easier with a quote, or at least a "Knock it off Lewis" comment. I'm using Lewis in the above as an example, and it should in no way indicate that I think Lewis would ever be off topic, or deserving of a repremand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted September 23, 2000 Author Share Posted September 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by :USERNAME:: Well As long as you admit to that, I guess I forgive you. Lewis <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Um... Feel free to lock this thread now that the original issue has been resolved... In fact, I encourage it. [This message has been edited by Pham911 (edited 09-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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