Horrible luck strikes again! (and again and again and again and...)

[The Commissar]

UPDATE! UPDATE! UPDATE!

"American armor division attacks German-held town during a snowstorm! Germans are shocked and are being pushed back! Here all about it!"

Well, since our battle has stopped for the evening (I was dropped and we just can't get the TCP/IP to reconnect again!), I took this opportunity to update you fine folk on my current condition. And guess what? They look (drumbeat please)...GOOD! E-Gads!

Ok, enough with the coffe-fueled hyperness. Here's the low down on my latest armor clash with my arch-nemesis (really this guy I met at my wargaming club)!

The setup was as follows:

Medium hills

Town map

2000 points

Allies attack

Random weather

Day time

Prefs: Only one German "Uber-tank" allowed. Arty is allowed (I managed to convince him).

My selection:

12 Regular M-18's

5 Veteran M-18's

1 Regular Rifle platoon

2 Regular 81 mm spotters

2 Regular 150 mm spotters

4 Regular sharp shooters

The action begins!

As I look at the map I will be forced to conquer, various Christmas songs related to snowing spring up in my mind. Yep, you guessed it, although the date is set to May the ground is finely cowered with snow and a light shower is coming down all about us.

Visibility is surprisingly low at somewhere around 200-250 metres. My tanks start up in a well covered position - although it wouldn't matter anyway with this low visability - but I space them out. After all, my opponent and I have agreed to arty, and you never know when a burst would come down on my poor open-turreted Hellcats.

Seeing as this is a town battle, I thought to myself that a mass clump of tanks would not be the wisest way out in one piece. I decided to slowly advance, my infantry heading into the town to spot any tanks, while a "reconnaisance in force" on my left flank would encircle the enemy.

My reconnaisance in force consisted of 3 regular M-18s.

The first few turns, going is slow. My opponent bitches at me to go faster. I bitch back saying he shouldn't of picked random weather. Finally, our collective bitcheness is cut short as first contact is made.

One of the tanks from my recon element briefly spotted what appears to be several assault guns on the top of a hill my force was climbing. On this hill is a single small house, blocking the enemy's view from the side. I decide to use this advantage, and send one of my cats out and around the hill using the building for cover.

Meanwhile, my 2 other cats come under fire from these three assault guns (later revealed to be Hetzers) and both brew up without inflicting any damage. At this very moment, my M-18 speeds around the building. At 5 metres range from the clump of enemy armor, the M-18 fires and knocks TWO tanks with the same round, before retreating back into cover, as per orders.

I send two more M-18's to reinforce my reconnaisance force, which is now reduced to one tank and a sniper I brought along. The sniper is positoned in the house, and keeps track of the movement of his Hetzer. In several turns time, my 2 other tanks arrive. Suddenly, from the same direction where once there was a single Hetzer, pop up two, and smash up one of my M-18's I left too close to the edge of a hillock. I spy a sound contact of another tank encircling my other two tanks. I turn one of my tanks in the enemy's direction, and use the second to encircle the enemy.

Suprisingly, it works, and what is revealed to be a 3rd Hetzer is brewed up.

Meanwhile, in the town...

The first few turns were tediously slow. My scouting infantry did not make steady progress, due to constant exhaustion from running in the deep snow. Finally, at turn 10, an enemy tank was seen straight ahead.

I quickly sped 4 M-18's into the street, and the tanks quickly ganged up and destroyed what appeared to be a Stug without casualties. My platoon re-organized and started a lively fire fight with a single enemy squad from the building next to the destroyed tank.

Next turn, things got hairry. Out pops another assault gun and KT, and brews up 2 M-18's. 2 others are safe behind buildings. I use one of the tanks to attempt to encircle the Tiger from the left, but encounter trouble in the form of an assault gun to the left side of the building which my M-18 sped past. The M-18 is destroyed before reaching its target.

All looks gloomy in the town, and I back my men off a bit to hide in the backs of houses.

On my right flank, over open terrain, over 9 M-18's move in groups of 4 and 5. Topping a hillock, they encounter a concentration of German assault guns. Several M-18's are lost, but I quickly concentrate all my fire on the group and a collection of Stugs and Hetzers are shred into scrap metal.

I now have 5 totally free tanks on my right flank, and encircle them in the direction of the town.

Meanwhile, on my left flank...

The two enemy Hetzers do not make any moves, but destroy that single building on the hill, routing my sniper out of there. I decide to attempt a risky manuever: One of my M-18's goes into a wide turn behind some woods and circles up the hill and behind the Hetzers, while my second M-18 Hunts up to the edge of the hill and into view of the Hetzers.

All goes according to plan, but my opponent sees my circling M-18 the turn before it speeds up the hill towards his Hetzers and starts turning his tanks to face mine. My M-18 speeds into the turning Hetzers, firing off shots left and right. All seem to miss. Now, both tanks have turned to face my M-18, and just then my second M-18 hunts up the hill. The Hellcat gets a beautiful view of two shiny Hetzer asses, prime for the kickin'.

Unfortunately, my flanking M-18 is brewed up, but so are both of the Hetzers. Typing "Viva la Victory!" I charge my single remaining tank over the hill and into a wide turn behind the town.

Meanwhile, in the town...

My opponent, thinking my infantry have retreated, charges a building with a squad. My infantry, waiting for him in the back of the building, open fire and eliminate the attackers without suffering any casualties. I regroup my men, and position the HQ with a good view of the building next to which was parked the KT and the two assault guns.

The assault guns are still there, but the KT has mysteriously dissapeared. I have a sudden urge to pee my pants. There's a big cat lurking somewhere around this town, and I dont know where. This CAN'T be good!

Then, in what perhaps is my most idiotic feat of the entire game, I rush two M-18's left over from my right flank into a street which leads to the two assault guns. I thought it was an easy target, but it was more of an enemy trap. Without warning, both my cats are brewed up by a hidden enemy platoon. I proceed to pound my head against the desk until my family rushes into the room and barely manage to stop me from diving out my 2nd story window. A Veteran and a Regular M-18 are lost.

And now, I wait until tommorow, when the fate of my men will be decided. The enemy wields what appear to be 2 platoons of SMG infantry, 2 assault guns of an unidentified type, and a clearly defined KT which has gone missing from my LOS.

I still have a number of M-18's, 4 unused arty spotters, and a fairly unhurt platoon of infantry.

I am left with several questions.

Do I have the man power and skill to prevail?

How can I maximize my chance of survival when I inevitably come to face the Big Bad Cat?

Will I be able to command my men well after I've given myself a cuncussion?

The answer lies in the future - AND IN FURTHER UPDATES OF THIS POST!

Cheers!

------------------

"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Mr. Clark]

Man, this guy sounds sooooo annoying. Sorry, but there it is. When it was YOUR turn to pick the battle... he "refused" to be an attacker (gamey). When it's HIS turn to choose the battle, he MAKES YOU the attacker (gamey). As the defender, he attempts to limit your inf (which in my opinion are incredibly necessary to an attack... tanks can take a position, but infantry hold it), and attempts to nullify your arty (in my opinion the single most important element of a good attack... can you tell I play allies?)... once again, GAMEY!

Finally, the guy has the NERVE to "bitch" at you to SPEED UP YOUR ATTACK!!??

I honestly do not know how you have the patience to play this guy...

All that said, I wish you luck on the second half of your battle.

I personally suggest using your (un-used) arty to shell his area of town to hell right about now.

Good luck.

"On my signal, unleash hell."

- Gladiator

[Head Mahone]

So...what gives? What do I do with this opponent of mine? Im just looking for some answers and probobly a few flames from some of the purists around here. Go ahead and fire, I probobly deserve it.

Sorry for the lenght of this post and the inevitable spelling errors I am too lazy to check for.

Well we all know that bad, and good luck has a frequent occurrence in real combat and C.M.. It's just another feature that makes the game so good. We also know that the German armor has a definite advantage (though I don't consider the STUG as having that status) over the American armor. An American commander can still overcome, and not just by out numbering (history tell us that). But, after reading your message it does seem that you are just being plain "out-played". I do not mean to offend you by saying this, but that's my take on it. Especially since you have some other victories under you belt. It just appears that this particular fella has read your book, MANY TIMES. My only advice is to hold your armor back (or at least 3/4s of it), and out of site in the beginning of the game. Let what little infantry you have do some scouting. Spot your buddys armor, then make your anti-tank attack. I know it takes discipline, (especially when your ground units come under fire) but it works! - To move your tanks in with the forward attack in the beginning of the mission, is the same as marching across an open field to take a "?" victory point 'TOTAL AMBUSH'. Most importantly DON'T GET FRUSTRATED! You'll never come up with a winning solution unless relaxed and optimistic. Oh, and don't forget to had fun.......

-Head

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"No man ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

-General George S. Patton, Jr.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Head Mahone,

While I think even The Commissar would agree with you that he has a lot to learn about tactical warfare in CM, I think it is also fair of him (and others) to complain about his opposite number. The guy is purposefully stacking the odds in his favor. If he is the better player (not saying he is) *AND* he has the scenario tailored to his advantage, it is no wonder why The Commissar is having so many problems beating him

Like others here, I would be looking for a new player to go up against. Pefereably one that doesn't care about winning or losing, but rather the thrill of playing the game.

Steve

[deanco]

Great thread. Thanks all, I am really learning a lot here.

As far as luck or the lack of it goes, you get this same sort of thing in backgammon. In no other game can one be rewarded so richly for making a stupid move. Naturally the person making the stupid move thinks it was brilliant because he was rewarded for it. That's why I think it's good to stick to tried and true principles, even though you're getting your ass wiped. Eventually your time will come.

Anyway, you have a lot of people rooting for you here, that's for sure!!

------------------

DeanCo--

CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/

[The Commissar]

Mahone,

No offense taken whatsoever. I take critisism lightly.

Let me say that I dont mind losing to opponents who are clearly of superior skill. I play them several times, and I use the opportunity to learn from them.

This guy, I do not feel is any better then me. He does exactly the same things I do, but during the course of most of our games is saved my luck or armor superiority.

In the first game, where we had the "flat as a panacake, as wood-covered as the moon" map, the armor superiority made all resistance futile.

The second game, the one I described as going down in the town map in my first post, was luck.

Then again, there is a saying that what appears as luck to an imbecile is actually the skill of a master (or something of the sort). Maybe I am an imbecile, and he is a genious of armored warfare. Correct me if Im wrong, however, but a genious does not make stupid mistakes. A genious doesnt have to relly on shots bouncing off to win. As illustrated in several examples found in my first post, he made many mistakes.

So I will keep playing this guy until his luck runs out and his inherent strenghts are countered by my personal skill and the aim of my armored collumns!

BTW - Unfortunately, no update for tonight. It's my birth day (feel free to send large sums of money or expensive items by e-mail), so I will be busy relazing and partying. On the weekends, however, we should have plenty of time to rumble!

Thanks to all of you for solid advice, comments, suggestions, and the eagerness to participate in helping me out of a tought spot. I love you guys *sniff*!

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

BTW - Unfortunately, no update for tonight.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just don't forget the thread - a lot of us who have nothing to offer are learning a lot from your and the Duke's conversations ... and the other guys too.....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I love you guys *sniff*!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine, but you can't have our Bud Lights...

[Mr. Clark]

Happy B-Day Commissar!

Now I know why I didn't receive a turn from you this morning.

[Dan Weaver]

I play the Allies as much as I can. My philosophy on armored engagements is that the Allied tanks' armor can't handle a stand-up fight, so you have to use earth, wood, and masonry as your armor and rely on speed and maneuverability to reduce the German engagement window as much as possible while you're dashing between hiding spots. No matter how much armor I have, one hit from the Germans will knock out any of my vehicles, so I might as well throw out the armor entirely, save points, and use cheap-but-deadly Hellcats and Jacksons. I try to turn every tank battle into a series of ambushes where two or three TDs gang up on one tank.

[Iron Duke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No matter how much armor I have, one hit from the Germans will knock out any of my vehicles, so I might as well throw out the armor entirely, save points, and use cheap-but-deadly Hellcats and Jacksons. I try to turn every tank battle into a series of ambushes where two or three TDs gang up on one tank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good plan Dan, but you, and others that have been reading this post, may be wondering why Historically, Tank Destroyers didn't make it...and here is Old Iron Breath telling us to "maximize firepower...buy Hellcats and Jacksons..." what gives?

I have seen other PBEMr's post/talk about this before, and they generally have the correct answer, but maybe it is not so clear as to be relevant in Combat Mission. The short answer is that Tank Destroyers are not Tanks. So what does this mean in CM?

First off let me reiterate the old saying of the best way to kill a tank is with another tank. (Maybe not so much now-a-days)

With this in mind, we look at The Commissars battle. His opponent has shown an affinity to nothing less than a 75mm Panzer Kannone, and, as far as I can tell, does not rely on AAA and light guns.

You see, when you pit a tank vs a tank, one of them is going to get penetrated and die. Almost all the Allied tanks cannot withstand direct hits from any German guns of over 75mm. So naturally the next step was to say, "well since none of our tanks can take direct hits, lets try and make them lighter and much faster", and thus was born the TD. In an exclusive Tank vs Tank Destroyer battle, like Commissars, TD's can easily, with good tactics and maneuver, hold their own.

The greatest single threat that I have seen in CM to the Hellcat, is the 37mm AAA gun, whether it be in a foxhole, on a motor carriage, or on a truck. In one Armor battle I had, I was given the unenviable task of stopping a HUGE German Heavy Armor attack. I chose a few Sherman Jumbo 76's for my base of fire troops, and had 15 Elite Hellcats at my disposal.(One group of 12 and one scout group of 3) My opponent was smart to keep all his Panthers, Tigers, Jagdpanthers, Pnz IV/70's, etc...in a large Kampfgruppe. So imagine a scene where you look across a valley and directly in front of your positions are 2 Kompanies of this heavy Armor mix. I was lucky that one platoon of Panthers was too far forward, almost entirely out of gun support, and I managed to engage it with my Jumbos first. That first exchange went in my favor, 6 Panthers, Tigers, and JK's to my 2 Jumbos. In the next turn, the group of 3 Scout Hellcats happened to be in a nice crossfire position joined with 1 more Jumbo. I engaged the Kampfgruppe once again, making sure to tophat all my Jumbos and crossfire tanks at the same time. The kampfgruppe lost another 7 tanks to my 3 effectively stopping the Kampfgruppe cold. So all in all, I had lost 5 tanks in exchange of 13. Not bad. Now, I got greedy and stupid. Instead of re-engaging and making sure I had seen (scouting) everything there was to see (in terms of his tanks/vehicles), I then in the next turn committed my 12 Hellcats to the fight, thinking I could then outnumber him and decisively crush the remainder of the gruppe. Unfortunately for me, my opponent had purchased 2 Sd Kfz 7/2 37mm Flak trucks, and had been lucky that they had remained hidden in a wheat field in the previous turns. When my force of Elite Hellcats engaged, six of them where knocked out in a span of 60 seconds! By unarmored trucks!!! NONE of my Hellcats had been killed by other tanks, hell, the tanks that where left in the dwindling Kampfgruppe where all beating a hasty retreat to the rear! The ROF of those little 37mm's is devastating, especially to the lightly armored Hellcat. So from a stunning victory, it was now pretty much a stalemate. So, in order for a TD to really be useful, it HAS to be able to live long enough to actually fight what it was meant to fight...other Tanks. But History shows us that they died in droves, not from other tanks, but from everything else that is resident on the WWII battlefield. And if you gave them any more armor, you might as well use the Sherman.

And that leads to...drum roll...The Combined Arms Tank Force. (...to be con't)

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One shot...One Kill

[Basebal351]

I'm sorry, but I could never see myself playing a game such as the one Commisar plays. Any time you have tanks outnumbering infantry, you've got a problem.

Hey Com, maybe you like the tank battles more than anything else, but there is LIMITLESS fun to be had with a realistic force selection for BOTH sides. Having a platoon lay down a generous amount of covering fire on an enemy position while sneaking up another squad or two from the side is worth a King Tiger's weight in gold. And I don't care if that made any sense at all All, I'm saying is, I'd, personally, get tired of just throwing mass amounts of tanks at each other.

But, I digress, enjoy the game in any way in please.

Thanks,

Jim

[Guest Zaraath]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

I have noticed your stunning lack of artillery attacks in both games we have played. Perhaps your opponent needs a gigantic shelling?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah. I'm playing a QB in which I forgot(!) to buy bazookas, and he had one Hetzer left to oppose my grunts, three Shermans having all been destroyed. I bracketed it with four 155mm VT rounds and

it was gone. The Americans can't win without making use of their excellent artillery.

IMO.

[The Commissar]

I go out to see a flick for 2 FREKIN HOURS, and I come back to have a boat load of posts awaiting reply!

LOL, well, lets get down to business.

Dan and Iron Duke,

Looks to be just about right. Great example of an armored battle, btw, Iron Duke. Seems you get around quite a bit, eh?

Y'know, if you have any time left in your schedule, I'd like to play a game or two against you. Would be a good learning experience, and Im sure the fine folk round these parts would love to hear of a good stomping ! If you're interested, e-mail me, or simply leave a mssg here.

Baseball,

I actually love combined arms, and sometimes, simply all infantry games. It's just that my current opponent has gotten me interested in armor battles, and brought up wide and clear that Im not the best I can be when it comes to armored engagements! So here I am fighting. I actually have lots of other battles going on, and all of them are combined arms engagements.

Zaraath,

Interesting...so close turreted tanks can be incapacitated by heavy arty, eh? I wonder, can a KT be, oh lets say, immobilized by some of those 150mm's?

Wow, thanks for making this post one of the best guides for armored combat, all of you, but especially the Duke.

Cheers!

------------------

"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Interesting...so close turreted tanks can be incapacitated by heavy arty, eh? I wonder, can a KT be, oh lets say, immobilized by some of those 150mm's?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes even King Tigers can be immobilised by artillery - 4.5 inchers can do the job.

Then you can use two Sherman V's to scream down on one of its flanks and around to its rear (sounds like a good plan so far ) - then lose one Sherman to your opponents 50mm AT screen (which I reckon is acceptable) and get the other one 87m behind the immobilised KT and watch one of your 75mm shells bang into the KTs tracks and then the second 75mm round bang right into the beasts rear lower hull .

Then you can watch said 75mm round ricochet off into the wild blue yonder and then wait while the KT lines your sherman up and then blows it and its crew away.

[Marc E. Sicard]

Here's a little story that may interest you: QB against the AI, ME 800 pts, December 44, clear & dry. My brave Canadian company is going up against a 25% superior foe. I picked up a Sherman II and a Churchill VI as my armour. Cheap, but great against infantry, and two tanks allow for some maneuvering.

First turn, my troops pick up a "Tiger?". Well, my tanks are exposed (flat starting position ), but those are often PzIV, and anyhow, there's nowhere to hide. I let them slug it out 2 on 1, but the Sherman quickly kicks the bucket. Then the Churchill manages to damage the "Tiger?"'s gun... only to be picked off by an HT . Nonetheless, after the HT meets a well-placed 2-pounder shell , the armor becomes a non-factor and my troops hold back the German horde for a Minor Victory. (had I had the time to place a PIAT for a good shot on the incapacitated tank, I would probably have gotten a Major)

Well, you guessed it... that "Tiger?" was in fact a King Tiger, and were it not for that extra-long gun of his, it would probably have slaughtered the entire company! Proof that the highly-regarded uber-tanks also have their shortcomings...

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"We'll fight you 'till Hell freezes over. Then we'll fight you on the ice."

[This message has been edited by Marc E. Sicard (edited 12-10-2000).]

[The Commissar]

Marc,

That's some good shot your tank had!

The last time I had a brit tank go against a Tiger (and this was a regular Tiger), the poor sods wet themselves and backed off, even though the tank was a Vet and I managed to manuerver them behind a hill and into the PZV's flank.

That was another game, against another opponent, BTW.

------------------

"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Marc E. Sicard]

Well, you can't underestimate the great motivation boost that having absolutely no fallback position gives. Besides, those were just regular Canadians... too brave to run, and not enough experience to know when to run.

I wish you luck, I think it owes you one!

------------------

"We'll fight you 'till Hell freezes over. Then we'll fight you on the ice."

[Iron Duke]

Commissar,

I would be happy to play a match, but as you may know, I am running the Ass Kicker of the Month tourney and that eats up a whole lot of my time. With work, several PBEM's going...etc, etc...give me a week or so and my duties for the tournament will die down somewhat. Then lets go for it.

BTW: It doesn't have to be a pure Armor battle if you don't want. I like playing "regular" battles also. And according to Murphys Law, you will win!!

------------------

One shot...One Kill

[The Commissar]

Great news, Duke!

I like combined arms myself, but we'll have to make it fairly large to allow room for tanks to play a large part. Say...3k or more?

BTW - Anyone else who would like to play me in more armor-engagements or interesting engagements of any sort, contact me. Players who would have time for TCP/IP games, if only an hour at a stretch, are very VERY welcome. These games would be discussed and analyzed in this post (and prob some others after this one is buried under the latest incarnation of the Cesspool).

I only ask because the opponent who I have been playing against during the lenght of this post seems to have discovered the post and found it offensive. Not sure exactly why, especially since I made it clear to him that it was solely for advice purposes and that I invited him to post his own views. Considering the fact that I did not once reveal his name or speak bad against him further proves this.

Well, hoping for replies.

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Supertanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

I only ask because the opponent who I have been playing against during the lenght of this post seems to have discovered the post and found it offensive. Not sure exactly why, especially since I made it clear to him that it was solely for advice purposes and that I invited him to post his own views. Considering the fact that I did not once reveal his name or speak bad against him further proves this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't speak badly of him, but about 40 of us insulted him in some fashion & stated our distaste for such players. I could see how he might take offense.

If he suggests another game, agree to whatever silly demands he has to remove any possible advantage for your and ensure his victory (No artillery?! Puh-lease!), then send him a setup in which you take nothing but trucks. Don't even use all of your points, 30 or so should be enough to make the point. I still think you should drop him like a bad habit, but if you continue to play him after that, use only computer-selected forces.

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"Late evening turned to early morning as you sat with fists tightly gripped and thumb poised, anxiously awaiting the next cartridge of goodness. The hardcore gamer was born from nights such as these. Show your 'Roots.'" - The description of the Atari 2600 shirt on game-skins.com

[stic.man]

So commissar has your opponent broken off your current game? I hope he hasn't because I have found this post to be extremely educating and very interesting, i have been reading since the very first post and check back frequently.

Although I have yet to receive my copy of the full game, this post and its detailed accounts of many engagements between you and others, has made me even more eager to take command of "hellcats", "King Tigers" and "jeeps with bazookas inside".

Hopefully my copy will be in my hands shortly and I can get started wreaking havoc on the simulated battlefield!