What BigTimeSftwr should learn from Id Software and others

[PeterNZer]

Took the words right outta my mouth Tom W

Nice idea Dalton, but i just don't think that would be cost-effective for BTS.

PeterNZ

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

Took the words right outta my mouth Tom W

Nice idea Dalton, but i just don't think that would be cost-effective for BTS.

PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am inspired by the concise nature of your post PeterNZer!

(some here might suggest I need to work on concision)

Thanks

-tom w

[Hamstersss]

Excepting those people who continue to think mods are used for cheating, which they aren't cheaters exist right now and will exist forever while modmakers are hard-working SOBs that feel realism is as important as you do, I agree with everyone on this topic. Therefor, given the hard-compiled nature of CM and the emphasis on reality, I throw my support behind Dalton's method of BTS releasing a vehicle or soldier API and then vetting any submissions. One's first reaction is that BTS will get a lot of "Cool tanks" that have nothing to do with anything. Well, they look at a screenshot and read an E-mail and they reject it. Or, better yet, we look at a screenshot and read a description and reject it.

The community can easily expend the manpower necessary for the first phase of weeding out user submissions. Somebody thinks they've got the perfect SturmTiger? Nope, nope, you've got the exhaust system all wrong. Hey look, when I run the armor API, it reports no penetration by Tungsten equipped 90mm. Next.

Need I mention the guy who wants to submit and OGRE? Wow, dude, cool, two 60cm railguns. Um, next.

But then there's someone who puts together the Brumbaur, models it perfectly, gets the armor right, the ammo load right, the penetration, the profile, everything. And you know this guy is out there, heck, there may even be two of him. And so we say, "Ya, kick ass." And the next patch of CM has the Brumbaur. How much work would that be for CM? A fair amount. However, the reward would be geometric.

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Did someone compare this to the Ealing comedies? I've shot people for less.

-David Edelstein

[This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 10-18-2000).]

[gaffertape]

Excellent post, Elijah. Nicely thought out.

GAFF

[PeterNZer]

While it would be kinda cool

I don't think the BTS guys have the time to put that together. It could be 'work on CM2' or 'setup API and stuff for player submissions'.

I'd rather they work on v2.0

PeterNZ

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

While it would be kinda cool

I don't think the BTS guys have the time to put that together. It could be 'work on CM2' or 'setup API and stuff for player submissions'.

I'd rather they work on v2.0

PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and I would rather they work on CM2 AND release Setup-API stuff for player submissions for CM2 ONLY.

Mostly I'm suggesting allowing user contribution for 3D model skeltons only, but we could also research and present suggestions for armour thickness, special features, ammo load outs, ammo types and things BUT only if it is actually helping them bring CM2 to us SOONER rather than later.

and I would suggest all this is only after the TCP/IP patch for CM1 is solid and patched a few times, and hopefully after Steve and Charles both treat themselves to a Lovely warm Carribean relaxing vacation! (maybe over the winter before starting CM2)

And now for the CRAZIEST idea on this board, they could write off the expense of that Carribean vacation if they posted the resort they will stay at and some other folks here wish to attend to make it into a working CM2 convention, disscusion, collaboration Kick off event!

Ok I think I refered to myself earlier in this thread as a "Nut Case", so now I'll just go back to the drawing board and work on my NEXT hair brain scheme

any other whacky comments...

All in fun really...

-tom w

[Toad]

I've played with "mods" for shooter games like Unreal Tournament. They're fun, but I always end up returning to play the "original." Playing with other people is more interesting than playing against the computer. It's always easier to agree to play "classic" than to decide what "mods" to allow.

So, even if Combat Mission did support dozens of "mods", I would find myself back playing the classic way eventually ...

However, I do long for using Combat Mission's accuracy and detail to experiment with historical "what if" scenarios. "What if" Germany's "E" series of tank designs, like the Maus, saw the battlefield? "What if" the Soviets and Allies didn't agree how to divide Germany and went to battle over it?

I would find many interesting hours exploring these historical possibilities.

And, to finally settle the question of who's truly the better player, without excuses of "your nation's units were better than mine", the option to play like-vs-like would be fun.

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--

Toad

Ontario, Canada

[deanco]

Blind spot! Blind spot!

Some of you guys here will never get it, will you? Maybe some of us here don't care about historical accuracy, did you ever think of that? What does it matter if the play balance is painsakingly invented and tweaked by someone (StarCraft) or worked out according to a million dusty books and charts? The end result is the same! Deep, fun gameplay! (assuming an effort is made to balance the game, which means lots of testing. Any mod that did not address this would rapidly fall by the wayside as no one would play it.)

Man, this is the thread from hell. I really gotta laugh when you guys get on your high horse about realism. Wanna know why us non-wargamers like CM? Cause it's a deep, fun game that takes a long time to get good at. And you can blow up and destroy things in 3D! And you wanna know what's REALLY funny? All you grognards like blowing up things in 3D as much as us headbangers, but you WON'T ADMIT IT, even to yourselves! And if you don't believe me, just ask yourself one question: Would this game have the same critical acclaim and rabid fan base if the screen was hexes and counters?

Right now my biggest regret in life is that I don't know how to program, because after playing CM for 3 days I knew exactly what to do to it to make this kind of game appeal to a wide public. And I would LOVE to work with other like-minded people to make my vision reality. But I can't, cause the code is locked up.

BTS is sitting on a veritable gold mine here. They have a game engine that could literally change the face of PC gaming as we know it. But instead of opening up the game engine to modders or AT THE VERY WORST licensing the salient aspects out to other game companies, they are sitting on it and instead trying to figure out how to accurately model a T-34 or whatever. OK, it's their property, they do with it as they please, but from where I stand they are passing up a golden opportunity to change the face of PC gaming, to make RTS a thing of the past, to push the envelope where it's never been before.

When it comes to this kind of discussion, most of you here have a mote in your eye as big as a 2 car garage. And I think that's really sad, and that's why I get so worked up when I see this sort of topic discussed here. It's just really too bad.

DeanCo--

[Disaster@work]

The original poster brought up the ID software example and then others brought up the Half Life example. These two situations were quite different from each other.

id software sells their engine outright. They make the source code available to other companies that put up the cash, wish them luck and let the purchaser go through the code by themselves. Carmack does not do tech support except by posting his .plan files which anyone can read. That means Carmack can just go on and do whatever he wants with future engines. id does not do any marketing of their engines, the various iterations of Quake *is* the marketing.

Half Life started out based upon the Quake 2 engine but then developed over time so that most of the code now is their own (Team Fortress 2 will be entirely Valve code). Their approach to the mod community has been more of a strategy than id's in that they have a team of developers, managers and other personnel devoted at least part of the time to fostering this community so that it makes sense to their core product HL. Some of the later posters seem to think that BT can use this approach without recognizing the effort it took for Valve to do this. Unless BT wants to just release source code (or try and sell it) like id software and lose control of their engine the only other alternative is to grow like Valve.

Stick to what you do best, BTS.

[IntelWeenie]

Someone mentioned CM1 being "left behind" when newer CMs are available. While not strictly "modable", I would like to see something along the lines of what 360 Pacific did years ago with their V for Victory series. All version of the game ran on the same game engine, so updates or new features were automatically available in the older games! Granted, doing this for CM would take a great deal of rewriting and probably mean CM1 still being left out. It would make the game much more modular and make it a LOT easier to do Korea or Spanish Civil war mods.

User created mods are fine for non-historical games, but I would NOT want to see someone who may or may not care about realism tweaking armor, gun, ammo values. Frankly, the way BTS has made the game (everything in one executable), I don't see mods being done. BTS has shown too much reluctance many times to requests for info about the game and 3D modeling engines (which modders would need access to).

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Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit.

[Dalton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Some of you guys here will never get it, will you? Maybe some of us here don't care about historical accuracy, did you ever think of that? <snip>

DeanCo--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had similar thoughts a while back.

After thinking about it some more, I'm not sure that the engine will be flexible enough to handle combat outside of the WWII timeperiod. (This is pure conjecture on my part! If you would like to see my reasoning, let me know.) Sticking with this assumption, I would rather see extensions within the bounds of the engine (WWII historically accurate) than the flexibility to create any unit type I can think up.

...Dalton

[Steve Clark]

There should be a balance between sacrificing gameplay for realism and vice versa. I am a wargamer, but not a WW2 one. CM is perfect for me in that it offers a superb visual experience and it engages in combat in an non-unrealistic manner. I don't know the different effects of a 75mm and a 76mm guns has on a particular tank, or really care. But some people do (but not as much as you think). I know BTS is not set up to support a graphics engine, so that is not a realistic option at this time. What I am hoping, though, is that some other developers would be clever enough to develop a Amer Rev War, Civil War, Napolean, WW1 or Korean War game of this new genre (3D wargame). As one who appreciates realism but not to an extreme, I think CM2 will be like CM1. I am more interested in other wars than I am in CM2. Just 0.01 cents.

[PeterNZer]

I think we might see more developments in CM2 in the way of opening up the engine or licensing it.

At the moment, CM1 is a 'can we make money at this?' kinda effort. And they've proved they can make money and it and make a great game. As they develop and grow you can be certain that they will think about other revenue streams and so on. Right now I don't think it's an option, (And for all we know, Charles has created the messiest gawd-awfully structured code that noone would want to pay for without weeks spent commenting and tidying it hehe ).

Anyway, lets just see what happens?

I would love to have a go at a Warhammer 40k game, (however Games Workshop are evil evil nasty evil and bad, so that would be hard to get approval for), I'd enjoy seeing all manner of various wargames, (hey, you could make it a individual-person based game, ala X-Com with just a few tweaks!).

In the end, I just shrug my shoulders and get back to Killing my PBEM opponents and wait and see!

PeterNZ

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Some of you guys here will never get it, will you? Maybe some of us here don't care about historical accuracy, did you ever think of that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, I've thought about it, but so what? Some of us here do care about historical accuracy, including, the last time I checked, the makers of the game.

AFAIK, one of the reasons Steve and Charles run a small shop, and aren't owned by Talonsoft or Interplay is because there are far too many "wargames" which sacrifice historical accuracy to the God of gameplay.

There are those of us who think that historical accuracy leads to better gameplay, not the other way around.

Let's beat a dead horse for a minute, and take Close Combat. I liked the first few. I even liked CC3 alright, although it started a worrisome trend. Gameplay? Yeah, CC2 had gameplay in spades. I played that game forever. I played it after CC3 came out. But realism? Historical accuracy? Nope. From the ubersnipers to the tank dance to the MG railguns, the CC games were not realistic. And in a series that claims to be "as real as it gets," this was a fault.

IMO, one of the things that CM has going for it is its realism and historical accuracy. That may mean absolutely nothing to you, but it means something to me. You may feel free to call me short-sighted or closed-minded, but guess what? I like games other than CM as well. I play HL, I adore System Shock 2, and there's nothing better than Worms Armageddon when I'm drunk.

But what do you think would happen if I went onto the Worms Armageddon board and started complaining that the banana bomb wasn't modelled realistically? First I'd get laughed at, then I'd get flamed.

CM is a boon for wargamers who do care about historical accuracy. It's also a boon for folks who, as you say, just want a deep, fun game. I say, fantastic, the sign of a great game is that it appeals to multiple fan bases. But just as I have no right to belittle you for wanting a deep, fun game, you have no right to belittle me for wanting a realistic game.

Maybe you're the one who needs to get off his high horse there, sport.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 10-18-2000).]

[PeterNZer]

Yeah, and Chupie is getting better at Counter Strike every day, tho I still kick his ass hehe

I think the point DeanCo was making was that with the CM engine you could have other mods and gamers get into CM through the option of all sorts of other scenarios, like a Star Wars mod, historical mods, fantasy mods.

I agree, there's room for it and it would be great fun, however I don't think BTS is at the point where it can realistically contemplate opening up their engine and supporting it to the required level. Also, it might dilute the 'historical accuracy' theme that BTS are running.

I think it would be great to licence the engine tho. I think BTS should seriously consider that option for CM2. I bet it requires planning for it right from the start to make it worthwhile, hence we won't see it with the CM engine.

Imagine a CM2 game, then 6 months later some other developer releases a Star Wars, or 40k, or a gang-warfare game, great fun!

The BTS guys could put a clause in the contract limiting the games 3rd party folks could develop (ie. nothing from the 20th Century) to protect their futures, but I reckon it would be fun

PeterNZ

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

Yeah, and Chupie is getting better at Counter Strike every day, tho I still kick his ass hehe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking of which, I wanna play you again

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Dalton]

Good comments, Tom.

I still feel there is a net benefit to allowing 3rd party development...(sorry for the long reply.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

... this one statement is at the crux of the issue:

"- BTS would evaluate the mod either accepting, rejecting or asking for refinement."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, so my last statement:

"I would recommend that BTS find a reliable screener for these mods, that would only pass on high quality modifications for evaluation by BTS."

is critical for success. Because:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

BTS is ONLY 4 guys, and TWO of them are prinicples and ONLY one of them (Charles) writes ALL the code.

The Bottom line is that I would not want to see BTS overly burdened with " evaluating the mod either accepting, rejecting or asking for refinement." When they could be working on something more productive.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There would only be benefits to publishing the API if the amount of time required to review proposed designs offsets the amount of research & development that BTS would have to do to provide the same functionality.

My expectation is that for CM2 there will be hundreds of new unit types - each of these must be individually researched and translated into CM software objects.

Research includes:

- finding historical justification for including the unit

- finding a reasonably accurate weapons load, manpower model, unit special characteristic (if there are special characteristic in CM - I've only played the demo to date. I hope my purchased copy will be here by Friday!)

- researching the appearance of the unit

- creating the skins for the unit

- deciding on a unit cost

I'm not sure how fast the guys at BTS can compile this data, but my feeling is that it would be quicker to review proposed units than researching them from scratch.

This discussion forum has many(!) people that would be able to make initial evaluations of proposed new units. What would be needed is for these people to enter into an agreement with BTS to provide a screening service at terms agreeable to all parties. (Read: work for free, yet ensure BTS that the unit reviews will be available on certain dates.)

I am NOT qualified to do this!

I am NOT suggesting that it is anyone's obligation to do this.

A couple words on scope:

I would expect that a majority of the proposed units would be "new" not "corrections" to existing units. Specifically for CM2, there would be all the new Russian & eastern European units to create - it would be more fun to add something new to CM than tweek something old. (You would be able to brag, "That's my insert_russian_unit_name_here unit!")

Of course, there would be submissions that are tweeks to existing units. Either BTS could say NO to all tweeks, or have the screeners only pass on the highly justified tweeks.

Cheers,

...Dalton

[PeterNZer]

Ok Chupie, perhaps when we come back from Bovington we can all go to a pub or to a gaming place or something?

I'm hell-busy at the moment, but otherwise could spare a weeknight some time, just drop me a mail, I'm sure Dr Al and others I know would be keen. (and we can go to the cheaper $4 place at Baker St).

PeterNZ

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

Ok Chupie, perhaps when we come back from Bovington we can all go to a pub or to a gaming place or something?

I'm hell-busy at the moment, but otherwise could spare a weeknight some time, just drop me a mail, I'm sure Dr Al and others I know would be keen. (and we can go to the cheaper $4 place at Baker St).

PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was a general "I'mgonnakickyourassnexttime" post, and not a "dammit,let'sgoouttomorrow" post I'm busy these days myself. Well, more or less

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[PeterNZer]

well ha! then!

My ass could kick your ass any time. You may be good at sneaking around in the night with Gerbils, but when it comes to popping a cap in yo baitch ass with my ak I have it all over you!

PeterNZ

[Hamstersss]

Hey Peter and Chup, this is a serious discussion, stay on topic or move on.

I think we've crystallized the proposal at this, and correct me if I'm wrong:

1. BTS releases an API allowing for the design of objects within CM.

2. Mod-Making community creates models, skins and stats, testing them with the API.

3. Community review of models and statistics. This would be informal at first but eventually some people would stand out and this process would become more formalized. Noone gets paid for it, they do it because of their love of CM.

4. If any armor or troops pass the rigorous testing, they get passed to BTS, who, if they approve it, would implement it in a future 1.0X patch.

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Did someone compare this to the Ealing comedies? I've shot people for less.

-David Edelstein

[This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 10-18-2000).]

[David Aitken]

deanco wrote:

> Man, this is the thread from hell. I really gotta laugh when you guys get on your high horse about realism. Wanna know why us non-wargamers like CM? Cause it's a deep, fun game that takes a long time to get good at.

I'll bet you at least half of CM's fans would lose faith – and hence interest – in the game if they started to doubt its accuracy. That's BTS's main selling point – anyone can throw together a game based on a historical war, but how many are willing to make the effort to make it realistic? It is immeasurably more rewarding to win a battle if you know that you did it under realistic constraints.

Dalton wrote:

> I'm not sure how fast the guys at BTS can compile this data, but my feeling is that it would be quicker to review proposed units than researching them from scratch.

BTS have, in the past, explained that vetting submissions would probably be as time-consuming as doing all the work themselves. To be sure a submission is realistic, you'd have to do all the research that the creator has done – and then you've got to keep rejecting it until it's right, which could multiply the time involved. Simply coming up with a near-realistic tank model only represents a fraction of the work needed to include it in the game.

David

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Guderian's anger was monumental. He struggled for words. "To say that the troops are to blame – look at the casualties!" he raged. "Look at the losses! The troops did their duty! Their self-sacrifice proves it!" Hitler yelled back. "They failed!" he raged. "They failed."

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Blind spot! Blind spot!

Some of you guys here will never get it, will you? Maybe some of us here don't care about historical accuracy, did you ever think of that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes I did, and you know what - I could not care less. So I do actually get it. Fortunately enough, Steve and Charles seem to be more interested in catering to the likes of me than they are in catering to the likes of you. Lucky me.

Andreas (riding a high horse, and doing it well)

[David Aitken]

Elijah Meeks wrote:

> Hey Peter and Chup, this is a serious discussion, stay on topic or move on.

Yeah, back to the Cesspool you louts.

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Guderian's anger was monumental. He struggled for words. "To say that the troops are to blame – look at the casualties!" he raged. "Look at the losses! The troops did their duty! Their self-sacrifice proves it!" Hitler yelled back. "They failed!" he raged. "They failed."

[PeterNZer]

Yeah, nice idea Meeksy, but it's not going to happen. Been discussed before.

PeterNZ -|-(o.o)-> Chupacabra