Fionn Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 I'll have you all know I have a GREAT sense of humour and am willing to write a ten page article/ deliver copious beatings to anyone who disagrees in an effort to prove it . Seriously though, I wouldn't define what I did as edge-hugging since I simply had my forces in place at that location after fighting my way down one of two on-map roads which just happened to be on a map edge and wanted them across the river ASAP .. It would have been foolish to move them into the middle of the map but if the map had been a few hundred metres wider I probably would have used the extra width to make a completely unobserved crossing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 ok a question on tactics. One thing I've been doing is spliting a squad and having to two halves walk point. (thru woods ect..) this way, if they come upon an ambush or under fire, I learn the enemy position without a lot of risk on my part. At the worst I loose a half-squad, or they route. In the later case they are almost always picked up by the main group comming behind. My question is this. Does this seem like a good thing to do? or is there a better way to get the same results? Lorak ------------------ This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. Without my rifle I am useless. Without me, my rifle is useless... http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Lorak, No that is the way to do it. Your primary task in that situation is to find the enemy, to do that you want to risk as few troops as possible. Here is what FM 7-8 says about it: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>a. Movement to Contact. A movement to contact is an offensive action that seeks (to gain or regain contact with the enemy. Usually, a unit moving to contact lacks detailed information about the enemy. Upon making contact, a unit identifies the enemy strengths and weaknesses as it develops the situation. A platoon conducts a movement to contact as part of a company. Considerations for planning and conducting movements to contact include-- -Make enemy contact with the smallest element possible. -Prevent detection of elements not in contact until they are in the assault. -Maintain 360-degree security at all times. -Report all information quickly and accurately. -Maintain contact once it is gained. -Generate combat power rapidly upon contact. -Fight through at the lowest level possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Fionn, Your ironic attempt at self-justification was very funny LOL! Lorak, The tactics you are using seem good for moving rapidly through forest otherwise I would suggest a stop start movement pattern. Remember your guys spot better when stationary therefore you can sometimes spot that ambush before you spring it. If your point squad is stationary and complete you can possibly get the drop on the ambush and fix them while you flank with other units. If your point unit is weak and forced to withdraw you give the enemy the opportunity to redeploy. I would also resist the temptation to recce with low experience units: it doesn't seem to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 In defense of Fionn (like he needs it ) that is the way I designed the scenario to be played. This is what I was getting earlier in this thread. Edge Hugging is not *always* an unjustifiable action. What Fionn is describing in his previous follow ups gets my goat too. That is the purposeful mad rush to get by the defender's realistic front in an unrealistic way. Tough call sometimes, but there are cases of this to be seen. I was guilty of it MANY times in SP and it is one reason I lost interest in the game. Any game that makes it that easy to be "gamey" wears out its welcome on my harddrive really quickly My point is that doing a edge rush in SP was almost always going to yeild more favorable results than going at the enemy realistically. In CM this is not likely to be the case for the reasons I described in my last follow up. In CM one or two squads on the edge of the map can hold up a LARGE enemy force for enough time to pound the crap out of it with bigger stuff or rearrange defensive locations to deal with the new threat. So I feel that such a move is RISKY at best in CM. Oh, and Simon also said something about the larger maps with objectives in the center taking care of the problem to some extent. Totally agree. Couple my comments above with the need to then move a decent distance back to the center of the map and I see a plan destined to fail quite spectacularly! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 What ironic attempt at self-justification hehe ? I WAS BEING SERIOUS hehe (not really, just funning here.) PS. Putting your best troops (or close to best troops) on point pays MAJOR dividends.. I usually spot most ambushes while at least over 100 metres away. It doesn't mean I won't suffer any casualties from them once they begin firing but it does mean I'll suffer very few ( the IMMENSE difference in casualties suffered at 100 metres vs 40 is amazing) and can begin isolating the ambushing unit before it even knows I see it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Good morning to all, 6 am my time here. Just sitting here with my cup of rocket fuel and going over the latest barrages over "edge hugging". Since i opened up this can of worms i figured i should stick my hand in it again. I understand those of us that believe "edge hugging" is unrealistic in a "real life" setting. If the map edge went out another 100 meters this would be a non-issue. you would still face the same defence and would profit from a wider front. And you also get invited to a re-match by Fionn (God knows i wouldn't want to earn his special ire... ). All kidding aside for the moment i would like to ask a question about taking advantage of the game's limitation. This also has to do with "edge" tactics and how it translates into a "real life" situation. Assume for the moment i am the attacker and in the course of the battle i isolate and press a unit of defenders against the map edge. In "real life" this unit would retreat off map while i gave pursuit. Or i would by-pass them and they could re-group and reenter the battle from the flank. But because an edge does exist one has to play in a way that is not "real life". My question then is, does my pressing the attack knowing i have my opponent pinned to an imaginary wall constitute "gamey"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted March 16, 2000 Share Posted March 16, 2000 Looking at the Riesberg map, there are two hills on either side of the road going in to town. Using the hills to shield movement seems like a good idea to me. the only way to do this, though is to hug the edge of the map. The two times I have played as the Americans PBEM I did this. The two times I have played PBEM as the Germans, my opponent did the same thing. As far as I could determine, my opponents didn't do this because they wanted to be gamey, but solely because of constraints imposed by the map. Note: There is a major problem with edge-hugging. Units that flee off the side of the map don't come back but rather disappear off into never-never land. I have no comments about edge-hugging in the other two scenarios as I've not used it or had it used against me. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As far as I could determine, my opponents didn't do this because they wanted to be gamey, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thank goodness for that! After all its turn 24 and my guys still haven't entered a building IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 Its interesting to see that there are 2 distinct points of view regarding this subject. I wonder how PBEM opponents of different views play a game? Do they lay down a list of "Dos and Don'ts" before a match? I'm curious, are there other tactics considered taboo to PBEM? So far i have only played the AI so i wouldn't know. Eventually i will lock horns with a live opponent and the last thing i want is to piss someone off to the point i get blacklisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Thiel Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 Don't worry about it Black Sabot, most of us remember its only a game. I agree with gauchi that the best avenues of approach to RB just happen to be near the edges and I dont care if someone uses them. And I bet if somebody used edge hugging to give Fionn a can of whoop-ass, he would probably give them a re-match anyway, just for the revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seimerst Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 You are interested in how realistic those of us in "military circles" think it is? I have found it to be the most accurate representation of small unit tactics ever produced. Not just in the mechanics of the game design but equally so in the three levels of AI and the variety of results that can come from your decisions-- be they good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 For the record I have NO problem with someone who just follows the "best avenue of approach". If that runs through the middle then they go there. If it runs along a map edge then they go there... A person who is honestly just moving tactically and happens to get near the map edge is a very different proposition to a player who uses the map edge when it isn't the best avenue of approach but is simply ONLY trying to flank me by using the artifical map edge to guard one of his own flanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: A person who is honestly just moving tactically and happens to get near the map edge is a very different proposition to a player who uses the map edge when it isn't the best avenue of approach but is simply ONLY trying to flank me by using the artifical map edge to guard one of his own flanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Understood, but how can you (as the defender) tell the difference? Due to the FOW you wouldn't know what route my flanking force took until we made contact. Does the sudden appearance of a force on your flank lead you to assume that they hugged the edge all the way there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 1. An edge hugger usually will have the majority of his force hugging the edge and not just 20 or 30% of it (which would comprise a maneuvre element). 2. When you swap passwords after the game it is VERY easy to tell if he edge-hugged or not. 3. Generally I find that good players don't edge-hug. So, if I play someone who uses other gamey tactics, puts a large portion of his force near one extreme edge and doesn't go near the edge purely for tactical bound reasons AND isn't all that good the odds are I'd classify him as an edge-hugger. It is hard to describe all the factors which go into the determination but I will guarantee you that when you play an edge-hugger you'll know it as it is obvious. (Sorry but that's the best explanation I can give.. It comes down to a gut assesment of the player and the game and so is hard to quantify.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted March 17, 2000 Share Posted March 17, 2000 Fionn, To coin a phrase the guy's here at work use "i'm picking up what your throwing down". In other words i understand your opinion on this topic. Because there is no "proper" way to play the game (the opponents have the freedom to play however they want) your opinion (and style of play) is as valid as mine or Steve's or Guachi's etc... However, if i ever get the opportunity to lock horns with you via PBEM i promise not to edge hug. I'll just light up your armor and shredd your infantry the old fashion way By the way i just got done playing Reisburg as the amis. I sent all 4 Shermans down the road!(i can hug the road too!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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