Franko Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 I have noticed that some designers have managed to reduce the amount of men in a given squad. Does anyone know how to do that during the design process (and not by killing them during a scenario?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Are you sure that they didn't split the squads? IPA ------------------ "Surrender? Tell them to go to hell." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Lamentably the game does not have the ability for reduced squads or single squads without a platoon HQ. SOme of us are lobbying hard to have that changed in the future. Wish us luck. I think IPA hit the nail on the head. They had to have been 1/2 squads. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 Until recently, it was possible with the editor to split a squad in the map preview, then go back to the unit screen and delete the 1/2 you didn't want. But for some reason, in one of the recent patches, BTS changed it so if you deleted 1/2 of a split squad, you automatically deleted the other 1/2. Thus, we lost our only means of reducing the numbers in a squad at the start of a battle. I agree with Wild Bill--we NEED the ability to change the number of men in a squad, or even build custom squads up from individuals with different types of weapons. If BTS doesn't want this to be a factor in QB PBEMs, then just make this feature available for the editor when making battles from scratch. It would help both scenario designers go for the ultimate in realism, PLUS it would help us CMMC GMs handle casualties without so much abstraction. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 This is (AFAIK) one of the original things on "The List". I kinda doubt we will see it before CM2 though. It seems like it may be a tough thing to add, or they would have already done it. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Bullethead, this caused some sort of bug IIRC. Scott, very correct (you get a Gold Star ) that it was on the original feature list, but didn't make it in. However, in this instance I think you are going to be happy to hear that you are WRONG about its future in CM2 We are in fact going to get it in there. Kinda have to since the Eastern Front was all about depleted units! One design concept is to allow the sceario designer to specify a formation and request that it be reduced in manpower by x%. CM would then semi-randomly "kill off" that percentage of me, leaving key weapons like LMGs intact more often than not (but not always IMHO). Another concept is to simply have a global variable that will do this force wide. However, this would be rather "clumsy" and wouldn't allow mixing depleted and fresh units in the same battle. So I tend to think the previous option will be the one that gets into the game. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 I'd like both methods (reduce formation precentages globally) and manual reduction of a squad, but definately that global thingy is NICE. Also hoping for inclusion of single squads! Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 I agree with LOS. I would like the percentage reduction-thing for quick battles, but in user designed scenarios it would be nice to have manual control of every man in every squad. ------------------ "Artillery is a terrible thing. God, I hate it." Pvt. David Webster 101st airborne 1942-45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Steve said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bullethead, this caused some sort of bug IIRC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Please fix the underlying bug and restore the ability to delete 1/2 of a squad <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One design concept is to allow the sceario designer to specify a formation and request that it be reduced in manpower by x%. CM would then semi-randomly "kill off" that percentage of me, leaving key weapons like LMGs intact more often than not (but not always IMHO).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This sounds very nice for quickly creating large, depleted forces. It would be nice, however, to then be able to tweak individual squads/teams as desired. If we can't specify exactly what weapons each dude has, at least let us specify a number of men, please . ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: CM would then semi-randomly "kill off" that percentage of me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gee, Steve, whatever you've done, I don't think you deserve to have parts of you killed off. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Good catch there Michael Bullethead, this is what the idea would allow. We haven't kicked the idea around for about a year, but the way I picture it working with the existing interface is something like... Purchase a Rifle Company. It goes over to the left hand "bought" column. You then click on, say, a platoon HQ and click on the Edit button. There would then be a percentage popup menu giving various choices (we would, and should, limit the options here). This would then randomly apply to the entire Platoon. You could then click on a Squad, hit Edit, and change the value. So use the HQs as a shortcut for the platoon and then be allowed to change the value for the individual squad. Should work nicely I think Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Steve said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Should work nicely I think<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think so also. I can picture it exactly as you described. Oh happy day ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted September 23, 2000 Author Share Posted September 23, 2000 If you look closely at the point du hoc scenario, it shows squads with 6 active men and 6 casualties before the game even begins...how did they DO that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Steve If you're considering allowing squads to be modified in the Unit Editor, is there a possibility of being able to modify the standard Platoon composition templates as well (I'm not talking about reducing the number of squads only) I'd comment that the existing Platoons Compositions are accurate, but these represent their full war establishments, I'd like to be able to recreate adhoc platoon compositions. We all know that during the late war the Germans were very skilled at scraping together any available units into adhoc formations. Another reason would be that certain unit types had many variants as to platoon composition. Eg British Engineers. I might know for a given historical battle an engineer platoon had 30 men in three squads. The standard template has two squads and a flamethrower. Here I can do away with the flamethrower, but I can't replace this with another squad. To get the numbers up I'd have to purchase another platoon and reduce it to say a Platoon HQ and one squad. The way platoon command and control is simulated in CM is excellent, so I wouldn't want to compromise this with the extra HQ. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howitzer Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Ahem, I know this is petty, but I can't help myself...to quote "the Steve"... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Purchase a Rifle Company. It goes over to the left hand "bought" column. You then...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't purchased units go in the RIGHT HAND "bought" column? Are you the real Steve? Steve C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Another reason would be that certain unit types had many variants as to platoon composition. Eg British Engineers. I might know for a given historical battle an engineer platoon had 30 men in three squads. The standard template has two squads and a flamethrower. Here I can do away with the flamethrower, but I can't replace this with another squad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Excellent point. I agree, it would be very nice to be able to add squads to platoons. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 While we're on the topic of squad sizes... (/me tries unsuccessfully to resist making suggestions for CM2) Will there be larger man-power squad counters, representing say sections or even whole platoons, to more easily simulate the Russian hordes while reducing counter-count? You know, like 20-24 (40??) men in a counter, so larger Russian units could be represented on board. Imagine a Russian regiment attacking a isolated German village outpost (company sized) during the winter of '42. The ground scale of CM would place definite limits on this but I think there is currently a little room for fudging. The platoon idea may be too much but a section would surely be possible. -Ren ***Did some more thinking on this: A typical German Battallion right now is represented by almost 60 troop counters. Using more men per counter you could perhaps have a russian battallion simulated with less than 30. This would be 7 counters per company (6 24-man sections and the Company CO unit) plus a battalion headquarters with all the support weapons (mortars, medium and heavy mg's). This would nicely simulate Russian lack of junior officers and NCO's, leadership training, and radios at all levels below battalion, while at the same time allowing representation of perhaps a regiment at a feasible counter-count. note: The Russian example is not from an actual TOE...just pulled figures out of air. [This message has been edited by Renaud (edited 09-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Hehe... no, I don't know my left from my right, but I am in fact the real Steve No, we are not going to allow mucking around with TO&E. This would require more work than it is worth in our opinion. If there is a rather common diversion from standard TO&E we will try and include it. For example, if it were common to have 3xSquads in a British Engineer platoon then we could simply add that formation. Also, ad-hoc units were generally larger formations made up of diverse smaller units. For example, a Kampfgruppe might have a company of depleted rifle platoons, a platoon of Pioneers, rear services units in a platoon, etc. This can all be simulated now. But I can't think of any example where one would have to mess with sub-platoon level organization to simulate an ad-hoc unit. Ren, Soviet unit sizes will be accurately subdivided up into their historical sizes. What you appear to be talking about is quantity of Soviet soliders. This is possible by just making them less expensive so the attacker can buy more than the Germans could when they are on the attack. But... it is partly myth that waves and waves of Soviet troops would assault small German positions. When this happened the Germans were usually quickly overrun. The more common Soviet tactic was to assualt, assault, and assault again using fresh troops each time, not assaulting with everything at once. The Soviets found they couldn't control large formations effectively so adopted a more or less "hit them again and again" style of combat. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 I understand the desire of BTS to avoid the appearance of duplicating what exists in other games, but I want to stress the fact that a good idea is a good idea. A versatile game is assured long life and tons of play. By being able to edit the size of the squad, pick individual squads, perhaps weapons within that squad and a name for the squad or unit (not the leader, but the unit) you introduce the capability for the scenario designer to go all out and reproduce some things that otherwise might be not possible. I hope it becomes reality. From a scenario designer's point of view I have a lengthy list of things that I feel would make for a much richer, more enjoyable CM. Its a great game, but who would argue that we cannot make it even greater? Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Steve, IMHO allowing a feature to adjust squad sizes kind of goes hand in hand with adjustment of platoon compositions. The topic of this thread for some of the posters deals with the exactitudes of fine tuning OOBs to fit the historical situation. Many of the scenario designers out there have carried out in depth research into their various battles. In the process of doing so, they may have been able to come up with very detailed historical OOBs and would want to recreate them in CM as closely as possible. I could send you historical OOBs that I simply can't accurately create because of the limitations of the editor. Some units types have too many variants to be included in the standard TO&E. Having the flexibly to adjust this ourselves would be nice, but sounds like a lot of work for a minor feature. Your comments on the German Kampfgruppes are fair. Anyway, it's just a wish list. Your decisions are always well reasoned and if you don't think it's worth it, wish not granted, fair enough. Thank you for the beautiful game. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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