Vote for the best General(s) of WW II

[Sergeant Huang]

Hi, BTS & Guys :

Can we have a vote for the best general(s)

of WW II ??

I am wondering that BTS can set up a page

that we (registered user) can vote for it. The candidates must be qualified for the followings (BTS can set its own rules):

1. Must be ranked at least Maj. general

2. No more than 5 candidates from the same

country.

3. ----- (any one who has better ideas ??)

If possible, we can also vote for the top 5 general(s) with best offensive/defensive skills.

Sergeant H.

[Mike Oberly]

My votes would be Zhukov,Von Runstedt,and Manstein.

Mike

[billcarey]

I doubt that BTS will be able to set up such a page simply because they are working very fulltime on CM (which is a good thing - thanks guys), but If you want to set up a page it would be very interesting.

- Bill

[Sergeant Huang]

Hi, Bill :

I wish I could do that, but I am kind of

computer idiot. Except playing games, you can't expect too much computer knowledge

from me. I am sorry about this and you can

vote here by typing some text and your own

opnition !!

Sergeant H

[dumbo]

Actually this is a good place to continue the other thread as it was getting too long ,I cant handle those extra page numbers to click on

My list is, in order.

Zhukov

Manstein

Guderian

however i do feel we have been somewhat remiss in our scope. Although i dont believe any western allied general beats any of these three my ignorance of the Japanese high command is large. In particular I would be interested to know who commanded the masterful Singapore operation, indeed the Japanese army although woefully ill equipped seems to have punched well above thier weight all the way through the war. This maybe in part due to amazing bravery of the Japanese soldier but I would like to know a little more about the leadership, any wise soul capable of enlightening me?

_dumbo

[Sergeant Huang]

Hi, Dumbo and Guys :

Ok, it is my turn to vote for the best

Generals to the WW II. My vote is :

1. Manstein

2. Rommel

3. Guderian

Below, is my personal point of view for

the famous generals of WW II :

* Manstein : Offensive skills : 99

Defendsive skills : 99

I think he is the best general during WW II, he took care the disaster after death of

6th army, he withdrew first, then made a counter-attack. What a general !! After

kurst, the German were in total withdrawal,

he maintained the German line in good shape

to avoid total destruction !!

* Rommel :

Offensive skills : 97

Defendsive skills : 97

He showed his military talent in WW I, and

he was really good in pursuit his enemies. But he advanced too fast, once he met guys like Monty, he will have a big trouble. Well,

I still consider he as a great general.

* Guderian : Offensive skills : 96

Defendsive skills : 96

Almost in the same level with Rommel, but I perfer to be Rommel because of his speed in

pursuiting his enemies. However, it is Guderian who gloried the Blitzkrieg, although he didn't invent the idea. He is really the

general know how to use the panzers. He knew

when to attack and when to withdraw, but Hilter didn't know about that at 1941 Russian

winter counterattack. That is why he was

forced to leave his 2nd Pz army, what a good

news to the Russians !!

* Zhukov : Offensive skills : 95

Defendsive skills : 95

With no doubt, he is the best general that

the Russia ever had !! But, he somehow learned his tactics from the Germans. However

, the artillery division really kicked German

's asses hard !! I really like this idea. If

you were Zhukov, whatelse can you do if you

face the world's best army, you can do nothing but feed them with your howizer and

cannon shells !!

* Patton : Offensive skills : 90

Defendsive skills : under 80

I think he the best American general !!

Although he has some short comings, he really

inspired the US tankers to make a dare advance in the weak German defensive line.

As one of his solider said : I rolled with

Patton !! About his defensive skills, I am

not sure about that, since I haven't read

much about his defensive warfare, but, he is

not good at defensive I believe.

* Monty : Offensive skills : under 85

Defendsive skills : 95

Unlike Patton, he is really good at defense

, but he didn't know when to pursuit his enemies with full speed. Otherwise, war in

N Africa will be ended earlier. By the way,

I think he made some bluffing after the

operation Market-Garden, he said (as I can

remember) he is good at maneuver warfare(?),

I am sorry UK folks, I totally disagree with

this. He is way too cautious to be a general

who is good at maneuver warfare(Blitzkreig).

He took too much time to prepare everything

for his attack, when you are increasing the

power of your attack, your enemies also have

enough time to increase their power to defend

. Kurst is the best example to show that if

you don't pursuit your enemies when they are

weak, if you wait for enough reinfoucement,

you are dooming your own army. Since , in

the mean time, your enemies also get re-

forcement, so, what do you think who gets

the the maxium advantatges ??

Ok, this is only my personal opinion, and

you are welcome to post your point of view,

BUT !!!! No abusive words, nor any anger can

be found here, we just discussed a simple

topic, not arguing with each other. PLEASE

respect other's idea.

Sgt. H

Male, 32, from Taiwan, now in the U.S.

[Berlichtingen]

Best German:

Manstein

Rundstedt

Gudarian

Russian:

Zhukov

American:

Bradley

British:

Did they have any good generals? Oh yeah, Alexander

------------------

Dan Brown dbrown@owc.net

[Guest Stabsfeldwebel]

Totally Rommel without a doubt. Sure he advanced a bit far, but hey when your facing a numerically superior enemy and your supplies aren't even half of what they should be, what do you do? Well he attacked. And remember, that his defensive skills were put to use in normandy, one of the reasons the allies had any trouble at all was the beach defenses Rommel initiated, such as belgian gates etc.

Also on a side note, he was one of the few who finally saw what hitler was about to do to germany and tried to stop him, that took a lot of guts, and he paid the price for it.

[Sergeant Huang]

Hi, Berlichtingen :

I would like to know why you choose

Brad, can you explain for your idea ??

oh, Alex, too, please !!

regards

Sgt. H

[dumbo]

Sarge I see your piints. My only gripe would be that Zhukov had a good track record before the Germans invaded so the idea that he learned everything from them is up for debate.

As for Monty I have done my bit on his defense on the other thread. I find it very hard to rate any allied general above him however i concede I know much more about the Eastern front than the Western so I could be in error here apparently Alexander was rather good too although perhaps like Von Runstedt he was less of a publicity seeker and more of the quiet professional.

Again I would be interested in hearing of far eastern gernerals particularly japanese ones (if I dont hear I may get off my ass and do some research for ya'all.)

On the Allied side I hear that Slim was apparently very good. I dont know enough about the pacwar to know of any decent American generals all I know of Macarthur is during Korea and the political fallout of his rhetoric so I have no idea if he was any good.

cheers big ears!

_dumbo

[This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 01-07-2000).]

[Bullethead]

I still say Slim was the best Brit WW2 general.

-Bullethead

[Sergeant Huang]

Hi,dumbo:

Thanks for your opinion, I am very

appriciated for that. Following, I am

trying to explain what I didn't explain

very well in my last post.

I am not saying that the Russian learn

everything from the Germans, but the

"Blitzkrieg". The Germans suffered

great loses during the Russian counter-

attack in 1944, and finally the German

army group center kissed its ass good

bye !! (Am I too rude ??)

I am sorry that I don't know too much

about Japanese general, I didn't see any

books talking about the Jap. generals.

About Gen. MacAuthor, as I know, he lauched

a dare amphibious landing at a seaport near

Seoul, except that I don't know much about

him. Because I am focuing on the Blitzkrieg,

which was performed at the Europen war zone,

not the Asia.

regards

Sgt. H

[This message has been edited by Sergeant Huang (edited 01-07-2000).]

[Sergeant Huang]

Hi, Bullethead :

Can you tell everyone a short story

about Slim to explain your idea about he

is the best Ger. of Bri. ?? Thanks

regards

Sgt. H

[Sergeant Huang]

Hi, Stabsfeldwebel:

I agree with you totally. But, Rommel

did fail sometimes, such as the 1st attack

on Tobruk. It is a well entrenched, well

supplied seaport, with some warships outside

the port. When his small forces encountered

city like this, or cautious guys like Monty,

he is doomed. Well, if he can gain the air

superity , has a full supply and enough forces, then the situation may be different.

regards

Sgt. H

[Guest Capt_Manieri]

My Vote:

All Allied

-------------------

Eisenhower

Montgomery

and the all holy and awesome.....PATTON!

[Bullethead]

Sgt. Huang-

General (later Field Marshal Lord) William Slim. He took over command of the Brit Burma Corps in March 1942, after the initial Japanese invasion into Burma. Despite inheriting a bad situation (outnumbered, ill-equipped, and demoralized, beaten troops in bad dispositions, plus total Japanese air superiority), he managed to extricate most of his Brit forces (most of the Burmese troops ran off) to form the nucleus of the counteroffenive force. In due course, this became the 14th Army and Slim was in charge of all ground forces operating from India against Burma.

Slim eventually reconquered Burma in 1945, following a classic campaign wherein he divined the Japanese general's plan and figured out a way to upset it at the crucial moment, after pretending to fall into a trap.

Before that, he'd also had to beat off a strong Japanese invasion of India in 1944.

The Japanese generals facing Slim knew their business and they had very good troops. The terrain involved was very difficult and the supply situation was horrendous. Despite these difficulties, Slim basically built up his force from scratch and led them to victory. It should also be noted that Slim was the only Allied general faced with a theater where the Axis retained the strategic initiative for so late in the war.

Anyway, I think Slim did a much better job than other generals did in easier circumstances. But he was stuck out in the CBI theater so didn't get much press coverage (which Monty monopolized anyway). He got his baton and his peerage, so his bosses recognized his achievements, but hardly anybody in the US has ever heard of him.

-Bullethead

[Mark IV]

"...from July on, we were to hear more and more of General Patton. He seemed to be commanding a new army on the invasion front- later identified as the United States Third Army. He was reported to be an expert commander of armored troops and something of a daredevil. We nicknamed him 'the American Guderian'".

- Leutnant-General Bodo Zimmerman, Chief Operations Officer to C-in-C West and later (Western) Army Group D, in "The Fatal Decisions", Frieden and Richardson. Excellent old book that I forgot in the recent book thread.

Also some nice words for FM von Kluge, who probably deserves mention somewhere here. Apparently tried unsuccessfully to negotiate a truce, strafed, wounded, insulted, fired, and finally committed suicide for his considerable efforts on both Fronts.

"That is what it means to be a thoroughbred."

[PanzerLeader]

In order, for the Axis:

Manstein

Guderian

Kesselring

Rommel I feel had a few important failings. Although he was a genius on the battlefield his poor understanding of logistics and over-optimism probably led to DAK's defeat in the end. His project of capturing Cairo and then link up with AGS in the Caucasus was sheer fantasy...A decent strategist would have immediately noticed that it was completely impossible.

Instead of tying up as many British troops as possible and making sure that Europe's southern flank was secure he launched a brilliant attack yes, but that attack put in jeopardy the entire outcome of the war. As long as Malta held out Rommel had no chance of capturing Cairo and Alexandria.

Allied:

General Winter

Zhukov

Montgomery

[Mark IV]

dumbo:

Two Japanese officers to look at are Generals Yama****a (Singapore) and Homma (Philippines). Obviously both had jobs before the US and Britain joined the war, but these are battles they were closely associated with.

Yama****a was just brilliant in the Malaya campaign. He proved that the better part of generalship is preparation and logistics, rather than mere dashing about maps. It's safe to say he couldn't have done it without the British, though. Talk about underestimating... the subtitle to the Singapore campaign should be "Ignorance is Bliss".

General Homma ran into far more trouble in the Philippines than anticipated. The Japanese were as capable of underestimating an enemy as the British and Americans. Homma reacted, changed the plan (and sent for reinforcements), and won a total victory. The unusual tactics and daring of Japanese ground forces in this campaign are worth a read.

[Fionn]

Huang,

What you are talking about regarding MacArthur was the Inchon landings and occured during the Korean War and not WWII.

How he decided that the Chinese wouldn't get involved if he continued north and took all of North Korea is beyond me. Just have a look at how important those bordering provinces were to China in the 50s and you'll understand why they got involved.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Bobb]

Bullithead, I think I recall your mentioning

General Slim previously with out any echos.

While I may be too ignorant to get into the

game of accurate, exact accounting of gereralship and standing therein, I have been

surprised that you have not been echoed in your opinion. He certainly did an outstanding job. If he did not command tank armies or other Blitzkrieg elements, his contribution to allied victory was outstanding. I wonder how some of the European theatre greats would have fared in his shoes given his resources, and problems.

If Eisenhour was Mr. Coaliltion warfare in Europe, I wonder if he accomplished much more than Lord Mountbatten did in in the CIB area?

Reading what he and Slim accomplished there sure looks great to these American eyes.

[dumbo]

mkvi: thanks for the response man think I will take those names and do some reading. Although I am not very well read up on them the Early Japanese victories (unlcuding China) look very impressive indeed. {Particularly when you consider their starting point its a bit Like England lanching a successful ground invasion of all of continetal europe on its own, an amazing feat.

As far as I know Japan used only japanese troops as well, am i way off here? I wonder if they enlisted any Koreans for example? Hmmm Dumbo needs to go to the library tommorrow

As for Ike I would put him up there with Marshall and other great administrators, I think he had the common sense to delegate command down and only intervene when commanders were at odds (which given that he commanded Patton & Monty must have been a full time job in itself).

Btw Panzer leader while i think your list pretty much up there I would put a question mark against the Winter. Certainly on the Russian front I am not yet convinced by my reading that the winter "saved" Moscow. Certainly not the cold which affected both sides (remember much of the soviet army came from warmer climbs than the germans). Either way ANY soldier whichever side is going to be in big trouble camping outside in subzero temperatures (makes me feel cold just thinking about it

That said I think the mud played a part in slowing the advance. Just a thought.

SargeH: Yeah I hear ya about army group center although what choice did the germans have? If they had abandonded the center then the withdrawl of the Flank groups could have been much much worse, they might also have reckoned that as the center had the most defensible terrain that they could give the soviets a bloody nose. Didnt work out that way of course but it wasnt such a bad plan.

cheers,

dumbo

[This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 01-08-2000).]

[Bullethead]

Bobb said, re: General Slim

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have been surprised that you have not been echoed in your opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm VERY surprised that with so many Brits on this board, NONE have stood up for Slim. Given his resources, problems, and opposition, his accomplishments were nothing less than great. And they called for a lot more imagination, flexibility, and just plain ol' dirty tricks than others faced in more conventional theaters.

Whether or not he and Monty would have done as well if their roles had been reversed is a moot point. We only have their historical jobs to judge them by. But to my mind, there's no question that Slim did his job way better than Monty did his, and Slim's job was way harder. Plus, I haven't come across the personal animosity re: Slim that Monty generated among is contemporaries.

-Bullethead

[PanzerLeader]

Dumbo,

Any soldier can feel those sub-zero temperatures in his guts , but some feel it more than others depending on what they have on their skin...In the winter of 41 the Soviet army was better equiped than the Wehrmacht for the cold. The soldiers had better clothes, the tanks' fuel didn't freeze, and the supply trucks kept coming.

The Germans on the other side were still wearing denim trousers(->frostbite), and the tanks and trucks couldn't move anymore.

The mud stopped the German offensive from having any chance of taking Moscow, but 2 months later the snow and cold gave the Russians the opportunity to strike a decisive blow on HeeresGruppe Mitte.

[This message has been edited by PanzerLeader (edited 01-09-2000).]

[tss]

I wonder how many generals got good reputation simply because they had excellent staff officers doing the actual work.

Because of this, I would like to add to the list of "best generals" Finnish Lieutenant-Colonel Valo Nihtilä. Even though he never commanded a combat unit, he seems to have made the plans of just about all major Finnish operations. (It is difficult to say exactly what he did since all plans were officially signed by General Airo.)

In Finland the army high-level decision procedure went generally as follows:

1) Marshall Mannerheim (commander-in-chief) looks at the map and decides the basic outline of next operations. (Direction of the attack)

2) Mannerheim commands Airo to flesh out the details of the attack.

3) Airo delegates the job for his staff. In practice, Nihtilä does most of the actual work.

4) Airo reviews the plans, accepts them, signs, and presents them to Mannerheim.

5) Mannerheim makes the final decision whether the plan is accepted or not.

There were many good Finnish high-ranking officers (Mannerheim, Lagus, Talvela, Oesh, etc) but IMO only two were real geniuses: Valo Nihtilä and Artillery General Valter Nenonen who designed the Finnish artillery firing methods.

- Tommi