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Unbuttoned tanks and improved accuracy?

Epée

By Epée
in Combat Mission Archive #2 (2000)

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Epée Senior Member

Epée

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Buttoned tanks have less of a to hit chance than unbuttoned ones, but when I am giving orders, it doesnt matter if the tank is buttoned up or not, the hit percentage remains the same, when tracing a LOS to a target. Shouldnt there be a difference? Is this a feature or a bug?

Epee

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Maximus Senior Member

Maximus

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Actually, what you speak of is AFV spotting accuracy.

The gunnery accuracy is done by the gunner, which is always deep inside the tank. The spotting is increased if the TC is unbuttoned. Spotting inside a tank has to be done through viewing slits.

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--"We want information."

--"Information."

--"Information."

--"Who are you?"

--"The new Number 2."

--"Who is Number 1?"

--"You are Number 6."

--"I am not a number, I am a free man!"

--"Hahahahahahahaha."

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Epée Senior Member

Epée

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Yes, what I mean is accuracy in hitting AFV targets.

In ASL, for example, being unbuttoned makes it easier to hit enemy AFVs. I had assumed that was valid for CM as well. What you are telling me is that the only purpose of being unbuttoned is to better spot the enemy?

Epée

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Doug Beman Senior Member

Doug Beman

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We shouldn't keep saying "ASL did this so CM should too" unless there's hard evidence confirming that ASL was right. ASL gave all on one nation's troops certain advantages/disadvantages. Did ALL German troops behave in the exact same way? Did ALL American troops lose morale faster, but also regain it faster, than other any nation's troops?

TCs may have been able to assist in gunfire by spotting. However, several factors IMHO make this a non-standard thing:

*the fact that the TC is going to see almost exactly the same thing the gunner does. If smoke, dust, etc block the gunner's LOS, most probably the TC won't be able to see either.

*if the gunner's and TC's LOS are not blocked, the gunner has a telescopic sight, meaning he's more "there" than the TC. If the gunner is so far off that he doesn't see where the miss went, chances are the TC won't notice it either (an AP round that misses doesn't "show" much when it digs into the ground)

*unless I miss my guess, the TC isn't supposed to be fixating on individual targets, acting as shot-tracker. He should be looking for next targets, fighting the tank, interfacing with his superiors, etc.

DjB

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Maximus Senior Member

Maximus

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Yeah, what Doug said! LOL! Those are the points that I tried to make, but my explanation was directly related to CM's rules. wink.gif

------------------

--"We want information."

--"Information."

--"Information."

--"Who are you?"

--"The new Number 2."

--"Who is Number 1?"

--"You are Number 6."

--"I am not a number, I am a free man!"

--"Hahahahahahahaha."

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Guest Germanboy

Guest Germanboy

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

However, the TC can "spot" misses, and "aim" the gun as well. An unbuttoned TCwill improve accuracy. However, I'm not certain if CM models that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That statement is wrong - it should read 'can improve accuracy', for the reasons Doug pointed out.

In Carver's 'The British Army' there is a picture of a 17pdr AT gun firing, probably in the desert. The observer with his binos is situated quite a few metres away from the gun so that his LOS is not impeded by dust kicked up (quite a lot of it, actually).

Now I know that a tank is different (especially a Sherman), due to height, and that after a nice bit of rain, or on a juicy meadow there will be less of a problem. But there again Doug's point still stands.

Would you rather have your TC help kill the target you acquired, or watch out for someone else acquiring you? That is a tough choice, and I do not know enough about tank combat to answer the question. I would guess it is situational, really.

------------------

Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-22-2000).]

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Maximus Senior Member

Maximus

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I don't know either Andreas, but I'd much rather have my TC just worried about spotting other threats than to be looking single-mindedly on the *curret* target. I'd want him to look out for that T-80 coming up on my rear and yelling to the driver to get the hell out of this position. Let the gunner do his job and let the TC do his job on spotting threats. Yes, the TC does and will call down fire orders, but as Doug said, the gunner can probably see where his shot went better than the TC can.

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Jeff Duquette Senior Member

Jeff Duquette

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>unless I miss my guess, the TC isn't supposed to be fixating on individual targets, acting as shot-tracker. He should be looking for next targets, fighting the tank, interfacing with his superiors, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The TC and gunner, as well as any other pair of eyes within a crew with access to a periscope or vision block should be intent on their vehicles fall of shot. Watching for either the tracer element or splash from impact. The whole concept of bracketing ones target is lost if you are not watching your fall of shot. Dust and flash generated during firing may obscure one individuals LOS on fall of shot but not necessarily another's. That is why multiple pairs of eyes need to be intent on this task. It is especially critical that the TC is observing fall of shot, as the gunner's field of vision is restricted. A Tank Comander should be nose defilade in his cupola with binos in hand maintaining situational awareness, watching the effect of his fire, and providing his gunner with range adjustment cues as required. If buttoned he should have his eyes glued to his periscope or range finder and adjusting his vehicles fire as required.

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Olle Petersson Senior Member

Olle Petersson

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epée:

... when I am giving orders, it doesnt matter if the tank is buttoned up or not, the hit percentage remains the same, ... Shouldnt there be a difference? Is this a feature or a bug?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's a feature!

If you look in the manual (p 40) it states that the numerical value is only a rough estimate. So the actual hit chance does differ.

Cheers

Olle

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Guest Captitalistdoginchina

Guest Captitalistdoginchina

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On a slight tangent...why is it that buttoned tanks can see my AFV's approaching from the flanks then? Usually as soon as my tank acquires the red target line the enemy tank will start to rotate its armour to me even though it is buttoned....surely the tank can only see through a narrow arc in front?

Based on what you guys said here the TC is mainly for spotting - but i see no difference in spotting the enemy or acquiring a target whether the tank is buttoned or not. Now there could probably be a number of variables here, but it is just my observation so far. The only time i see a real difference is when the TC is killed, which is how it should be of course.

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

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tss Senior Member

tss

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Captitalistdoginchina wrote:

surely the tank can only see through a narrow arc in front?

The tank commander has a vision cupola that allows him to look to every directions. However, the view from inside the cupola is worse than non-buttoned view.

- Tommi

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Epée Senior Member

Epée

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Olle said:

"Referring to the original question:

It's correct as is. The shown probability is a rough estimate for the first shot.

Buttoned or unbuttoned makes a difference only for subsequent shots."

Does it really make a difference? The manual doesnt mention it anywhere...I looked it up.

If there is a bonus to your hit probability, I would like to know roughly what it is. 1-5%? 10-20%? I havent seen this mentioned anywhere, and it would be interesting to know if my unbuttoned TC should be out there risking a snipers bullet.

Epée

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Guest Germanboy

Guest Germanboy

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coralsaw:

Anybody has a URL with a picture of the cupola?

Not that I don't believe, out of curiosity...

I personally think that buttoned spotting is overestimated in CM...

Regards

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have sat on the TC seat of a Panzer III N in Bovington, it had alround vision slits. We have a picture somewhere (either Peter or me) of how small the vision slits were. They were also broken up with armour, so you had a number of 'dead' angles.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-24-2000).]

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Guest Germanboy

Guest Germanboy

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coralsaw:

So Andreas, do you reckon the TC could spot e.g an AFV 500 away flanking the tank in 10 seconds, in the middle of the battle, smoke flying everywhere, sound overloaded etc?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ioannis, he honest answer is 'I don't know' - too many variables. I would not, but I am not under high levels of adrenaline, have not been trained to do that, and my life does not depend on it. I would think that in the Panzer III at least you would have a hard time keeping track of all that was going on. Also, this was a design from a time when there were many more German tanks around, so they could probably have divided the area to be observed into sectors (no idea if this was done), thus making it easier.

------------------

Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-24-2000).]

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