Guest ciril Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 I've been PBEMing a lot in bocage (A Hard Stand scenario and Drive to Mortain operation). Both my opponent and I have frequently wondered how it was possible to see enemy units where nobody had a LOS to. Then my opponent gave a thesis which seems plausible: Once identified, an enemy unit remains identified for the rest of the scenario/battle, regardless of the momentary information it would otherwise give away. In more precise CM manual terms, the "spotting level" never goes down for an individual unit. Consequently, we've been seeing sound contacts in bocage, which automatically turn into higher spotting level displays for previously seen units, so it looks like we can see through bocage and other visual obstacles. If this is correct, it seems like a very important issue, so I kindly ask that somebody comments. Ciril Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 I have noticed the same, but what you identify is not necessarily what it is until you have a clear LOS. ------------------ "Victory smiles upon those who anticipate the changes in the character of war, not upon those who wait to adapt themselves after they occur." General Guilio Douhet 1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 -Sarge! theres a tank moving up the road behind the bocage! -Damn! must be that tiger we saw earlier! Zook team, get ready! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In more precise CM manual terms, the "spotting level" never goes down for an individual unit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've seen numerous instances of sound contacts that disappear, wouldn't that be an example of spotting level going down? ------------------ Charlie don't surf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 I also enjoy when you have a sound contact and it ducks because of incoming arty fire. We can hear people ducking? ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 What I've noticed is that when I no longer have a valid LOS on a unit, it degenerates into a generic icon. That icon remains in the location where I lost contact with the unit even if the unit has slipped away to another location. Sounds to me as if you (Ciril) may have less than full FOW set. Could that be? Otherwise, I'm stumped. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Banshee: I also enjoy when you have a sound contact and it ducks because of incoming arty fire. We can hear people ducking? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, It sounds like "quack, quack, QUACK!". Hey, somebody had to say it! ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: Yes, It sounds like "quack, quack, QUACK!". Hey, somebody had to say it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> DOH! ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciril Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish: I've seen numerous instances of sound contacts that disappear, wouldn't that be an example of spotting level going down? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Strictly speaking yes, a sound contact that disappears is an example of the spotting level going down, because it's going from Level 1 to Level 0, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that hearing the enemy unit (Level 1) is triggering a higher level info graphic, if you happen to have gathered more info about the unit earlier. I have no other way to explain Level 3 and 4 contacts which nobody can see. I suppose we only noticed this because we were fighting in bocage - most of the time enemy units can't be seen, but when they can you gather some extra intel which is retained for the rest of the game. Ciril Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvK Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 Yes, in bocage country in particular, the way that ID levels don't degrade when a unit leaves LOS can have major effects. When maneuvering behind complete LOS blocks, it's one thing if the enemy hears something moving behind the bocage, but it's another altogether if for some reason they know which enemy unit it was, just because they encountered it and figured out what it was in another location. This also deprives players of the realistic use of fog-of-war to deceive the enemy as to their numbers by relocating. It's one thing to let units realize that an enemy unit that passes behind a house or small obstacle is the same one, but after being out of contact for a minute or so, I'd suggest that the ID level should probably be set back to zero. PvK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 IMPORTANT NOTE: The increased visual spotting around bocage has been increased since the v1.05 patch. ie. LOS thru Bocage has been extended. Why? I'm not totally sure. ------------------ All that sleeps, awakens... All that awakens, hungers... All that hungers, feeds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: IMPORTANT NOTE: The increased visual spotting around bocage has been increased since the v1.05 patch. ie. LOS thru Bocage has been extended. Why? I'm not totally sure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Could have been a bug introduced by the various tweaks incorporated in 1.05. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: IMPORTANT NOTE: The increased visual spotting around bocage has been increased since the v1.05 patch. ie. LOS thru Bocage has been extended. Why? I'm not totally sure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I recall correctly you do not LOS through a bocage unless you are very close to it. This wasn't available in earlier version, but it makes sense. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvK Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 Yes. This does not explain what Ciril and I have mentioned here, but yes it did change in 1.05, to be more like the manual explains it. This also makes some scenario setups work more as intended - I think maybe it used to work this way and has been changed back in 1.05, but that's just a guess. Before 1.05, spotting through bocage seemed rather random, as if there were unpredictable holes here and there. A unit right in or behind bocage would have some thin open lanes, but most LOS through the bocage would be blocked. In 1.05, units right next to bocage can spot and be spotted through about a 90-degree arc, as long as there is no other LOS-reducing terrain in-between, as the LOS is highly degraded. Having played both pre-1.05 and 1.05 in bocage, I think the 1.05 system works much better, especially because it's more predictable and doesn't require huge amounts of checking and fiddling like the previous system. It also makes it possible to set up useful positions without masses of blind spots from behind bocage. It doesn't change the problem reported in this thread, however. PvK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 Hi Ciril, I've asked Charles to take a look into this. He probably won't get a chance for a while to do so since he is devoting all energy to TCP/IP at the moment. And no, we don't know when it will be done yet Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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