Good bye and good luck...

[deanco]

Hi everyone,

As a newcomer to this forum, and as a person who is not a WWII buff, and as a person who in the past hated wargames because of the poor graphics, I'd like to say that the reason I hang out here is because I think CM is a great strategy game, perhaps one of the greatest ever. For me it's a game, full of strategic possibilities, a fun game. The fact that it takes place in WWII is cool in and of itself, but it's not the coolest part of it by a long shot. Now my point is this : everyone here is saying, 'this board has changed' But most of you just stop right there, without explaining why. The closest someone came to explaining why was Seanachai, who said, "look, there is no way that a great wargame is going to be embraced by a group of relaxed, communal Quakers." OK, I get the exaggeration, but my point is... maybe not Quakers, but people who like strategy games, who are not WWII buffs. I came from the Imperium Galactica 2 board myself, played Shogun, and used to make maps for Total Annihilation and Starcraft. I just like a good game, period. So my question is, is this what you all mean when you say that the board is going downhill? That there is an influx of people from a non-wargame background coming here? Maybe... less intelligent than what you're used to?(OK, I said it, but I'm just stealing the Avalon Hill manifesto, 'games for thinking people') Put another way, If CM was turn based and had hexes and counters, but was just as great a game strategy wise, do you think you would have this same problem with the board going downhill? I am very interested in your opinions, as I am considering a CM project having to do with all this. Thanks for listening.

DeanCo--

[Henri]

I believe that Kevin didn't say WHY he was leaving because he din't want to start a big thread. Well, now that this has failed, maybe he could come back and tell uss.

I dn't think that this forum is bad, it is much better than most. But the bad news is that it is probably going to get worse, with the influx of new menbers to be expected from the good reviews in mainstream magazines.

We're going to get people from forums dealing with RTS games, space sim games, and so on; and many of these people are going to be people with little or no previous experience with WW2 games.

My suggestion to keep the noise level down is to be tolerant of newcomers and off-topic posts (and leave the latter to the moderators), and to ignore trolls and idiots whose greatest satisfaction is getting attention to themselves. Nothing is as frustrating to a troublemaker than to find himself all alone in a room .

Some people are understandably thin-skinned due to having been the targets of attacks, and I guess that we ahould all try to keep our cool...WHADDAYAMEAN I'M A POINTYHEADED IDIOT?...errr where was I?...

I have given up trying to read every post after doing it to the exclusion of everything else for a week. And I'm taking a plane in a few hours and I won't be able to read this forum for a week .

Henri

[Henri]

I believe that Kevin didn't say WHY he was leaving because he din't want to start a big thread. Well, now that this has failed, maybe he could come back and tell us.

I don't think that this forum is bad, it is much better than most. But the bad news is that it is probably going to get worse, with the influx of new menbers to be expected from the good reviews in mainstream magazines.

We're going to get people from forums dealing with RTS games, space sim games, and so on; and many of these people are going to be people with little or no previous experience with WW2 games.

My suggestion to keep the noise level down is to be tolerant of newcomers and off-topic posts (and leave the latter to the moderators), and to ignore trolls and idiots whose greatest satisfaction is getting attention to themselves. Nothing is as frustrating to a troublemaker than to find himself all alone in a room .

Some people are understandably thin-skinned due to having been the targets of attacks, and I guess that we ahould all try to keep our cool...WHADDAYAMEAN I'M A POINTYHEADED IDIOT?...errr where was I?...

I have given up trying to read every post after doing it to the exclusion of everything else for a week. And I'm taking a plane in a few hours and I won't be able to read this forum for a week .

Henri

[This message has been edited by Henri (edited 07-29-2000).]

[Olduvai]

Seanachai wrote:

"...Most of these demented swine have 'combat' tatooed across their knuckles."

I saw a guy with "Poor Impulse Control" tatooed on his forehead. Would he count?

[Olduvai]

This thread makes me very uncomfortable. I get nervous whenever folks start talking about The Way It Should Be.

I think this thread is indicative of how good this board really is. Whether intentionnally provocative or not, any post which in effect says "this place has changed and I'm leaving" is destined to produce a wide range of responses. I think a lot of boards out there would degenerate immediately into a pointless and offensive flame war.

Instead here we have a relatively thoughtful and mildly philosophical debate about status quo, about how to All Get Along. Yes, the board will change as new people come. And yes, the larger the sample, the flatter the bell curve. But we are also talking about wargamers, Extreme Grognards, and people who understand why Combat Mission is so revolutionary -- a pretty good sample to begin with. In other words, this is good people.

As a newbie (and someone doing his best to flatten that curve) I appreciate the fact that many of the "old-timers" have gone out of their way to welcome all comers, and even point out their contributions. Many have made the point in this very thread that they appreciate newcomers. But please be aware that any discussion of How It Was Before is bound to make anyone new at least a little uncomfortable.

[Leclerc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

That there is an influx of people from a non-wargame background coming here? Maybe... less intelligent than what you're used to?(OK, I said it, but I'm just stealing the Avalon Hill manifesto, 'games for thinking people') Put another way, If CM was turn based and had hexes and counters, but was just as great a game strategy wise, do you think you would have this same problem with the board going downhill? I am very interested in your opinions, as I am considering a CM project having to do with all this. Thanks for listening.

DeanCo-- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem isn't intelligence but gaming interest. As you said, a game with "bad" graphic doesn't interest you; I'm for my own disgusted with eye-candy games historically wrong. It's 2 very differnet gaming cultures. For example, when you say CM is full of strategy, I will reply you it's a tactical game. Strategy is totally other thing dealing with economics, politics and so on... Even your definition of strategy isn't the same than mine.

I'm happy to see in this forum these cultures in dialog. But if we have to be patient when some questions or comments that seems to be totally wrong, you do have too to understand that CM is based on the will to simulate historical results as much as giving a fun gameplay, a concern which is totally lacking by definition in most of the games you mention ( except Shogun).

regards

Laurent

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-29-2000).]

[deanco]

Laurent,

That's all well and good. You guys can get off on your armor thicknesses and your historical backgrounds all you want. I'm happy for you, whatever melts your butter. I'm asking, is this the reason (or a major reason) why you people that have been here a long time think that the forum is degenerating? I would guess from your response that the answer is yes, although you didn't state it clearly.

DeanCo--

[Guest Bad Ju Ju]

Fionn Stated:

"Bad Ju Ju, Do you REALLY feel the need to criticise the inelegant usage of double negatives? I mean, is that really something which belongs in a reasoned discussion?"

Fionn, LOL, this is a reasoned discussion? It doesn't seem so to me.

"And you went on to say" Fionn, it seems odd, your supporting the "rightness" or soundness of people leaving this forum to which you so frequently post." It only sounds odd to you I'm sure. You must be pretty new right?"

Yep, I'm a newbie. I've only been lurking for about 8 or 9 months and posting for the last three. About as relevant as a double negative and suggestive of the "I was here first" elitism I referred to earlier. Sorry, but that's how this observation strikes me.

"I've ALWAYS supported the right of people to leave when they feel hassled and, as a matter of fact, I've predicted this trend long before it began because I could see what was bound to happen given the degeneration which set in about Novembet."

It's not like I do not support the "right" of people to leave the board. Duh. Of course they can. I just think it is silly not to use this resouce of you like CM. No one forces anybody to read every thread.

"I'm NOT bashing this board and I'm certainly not gloating as people feel they must leave. I am LAMENTING that these people feel they must leave. I have ten times more respect for Kevin Verdon than I do for those who upset him. I could name a dozen others who know their stuff and whom I respect for their research and openness who have left in the past 6 months and without whom the board is poorer. I amn't gloating. I am lamenting their departure."

Here, I begin to understand your position much better. Sure, it is absolutely regretable when a valuable contributor elects to leave. Lamantation is an appropriate reaction. But so is questioning the wisdom of leaving a board that while, less than ideal, remains a great resource. Rather than say, "Gosh, I value your posts, sorry you're leaving," I'd say, "Get a life, it's only a game and don't let idiots like Bad Ju Ju run you off!"

"Quite honestly I'd have to say that to even think I'm gloating and bashing the board says a lot about how much you misunderstand me Bad Ju Ju. If you want to write me privately and clarify this misunderstanding I'd be more than willing to clear it up."

No, the part about lamentation cleared up things pretty well Fionn. I DID in fact misread your purpose and I apologize.

I still disagree that this board is "going downhill." I still think leaving because of flames or whatever is not a reasoned response. Now, can we all be friends?

------------------

"I didn't go to evil medical school for six years to be called MR. Evil." Dr. Evil

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olduvai:

As a newbie (and someone doing his best to flatten that curve) I appreciate the fact that many of the "old-timers" have gone out of their way to welcome all comers... but any discussion of How It Was Before is bound to make anyone new at least a little uncomfortable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's worth noting that most of the harsh words are between old-timers with emotional baggage, NOT the newcomers. The only problem the "newcomers" have caused is that the board is now impossible to keep up with 100%, but that is only an embarassment of riches... I don't think this thread is really about newcomers.

The occasional troll (very few here, so far)or unsearched one millionth question doesn't drive people away. That isn't a "direction" that would cause anyone concern. And the more folks here genuinely interested in WWII and wargames, the more diluted the negatives become.

There really isn't a "direction" to a public forum consisting of hundreds of more or less anonymous, free-thinking individuals, anyway. Attempts to impose one (other than civility) will be resisted, as usual.

Interesting nick, BTW. If you're an australopithecus, I believe that would be a first for the board.

[Leclerc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Laurent,

That's all well and good. You guys can get off on your armor thicknesses and your historical backgrounds all you want. I'm happy for you, whatever melts your butter. I'm asking, is this the reason (or a major reason) why you people that have been here a long time think that the forum is degenerating? I would guess from your response that the answer is yes, although you didn't state it clearly.

DeanCo--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You guess wrongly . Degenerating isn't the thing. There will be more uninteresting treads I will not read, that's all. And I should simply urge you to read these curious treads about armor thickness or real WW2 tactics... playing the game without will be quickly boring I guess.

Last re-read my post: I was simply saying we have very different visions of the game and it's good to exchange them. There was no irony in my post. You play game we won't and for gameplay these games are for some far more better than our "ugly wargames". I'm sure CM and other can be yet tweaked in this aera.

Of course, I expect some newcomers defending very stupid positions on some weapons or tactics and refusing to accept facts. I was then just saying in this aera hard-core wargamers have things you can learn. You will too find some stubborn and impatient. Blending 2 cultures takes time and peacewill from the 2 sides.

[deanco]

(sigh)...

Laurent, you said :

And I should simply urge you to read these curious treads about armor thickness or real WW2 tactics... playing the game without will be quickly boring I guess.

That's wrong, because after the player gets his ass kicked 2 or 3 times by the comp. he (usually) gets the bright idea to hit Enter and read up on that tank or whatever he's commanding. Not only that, that means the newbie has much more to discover about the game, adding interest, not subtracting.

you also said...

I was simply saying we have very different visions of the game and it's good to exchange them. There was no irony in my post.

OK, sorry about that, I misunderstood.

...and

I was then just saying in this aera hard-core wargamers have things you can learn.

...and you know what, I've discovered that very fact since I've been coming to this forum. So...everything cool, Jewel.

-------------------

To Everyone Else : I'm not interested in arguing, that's not why I'm here. I'm just asking a simple question, that's all. A 'Yes' or 'No' will do me just fine. Thanks.

[Leclerc]

Ok

No, with some exceptions-like you.

Last thing, I dislike totally your own irony or at least what you believe it's. Since your first post. And you're right: look at the unit box to learn German and Allied tactics, zug and overwatch are so detailed it would be a shame to not have a look at it,jewel.

Regards,

Laurent

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-29-2000).]

[Fionn]

Bad Ju Ju,

The ONLY reason I asked if you were a newbie was purely because I had difficulty understanding your view of me if you had been here for a long time... Of course, if you came in December or November ( as you say you did) then I can understand why you hold a slightly awry view of me .

And as you say, questioning the validity of Kevin's leaving is absolutely within your right. It is also within mine to disagree with your viewpoint and say that I fully understand why he is leaving and find it sad that the circumstance have arisen which make him feel like this isn't a place he can be comfortable in.

" No, the part about lamentation cleared up things pretty well Fionn. I DID in fact misread your purpose and I apologize."

Ok, not a problem at all. I'm glad we got that cleared up ;~).

[deanco]

Thanks a lot, General LeClerc. You've answered my question quite nicely, thank you.

DeanCo--

[Leclerc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Thanks a lot, General LeClerc. You've answered my question quite nicely, thank you.

DeanCo--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Marshal Leclerc please... as in history

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-29-2000).]

[deanco]

Marshal??? Isn't that a guitar amplifier?

DeanCo--

[GI Tom]

This topic is on a thousand boards, on a thousand different places and will continue to be a topic on message boards until the end of time.

I am a newcomer to this board. I have spent time on several other boards over the past few years, East Fronts, Chain of Command's (JFL Regiment), Ultima Online. This board has been, IMHO, the best self policed board I have seen in my travels. Kudos to the folks who started the "trend".

This is a wonderful game. This is "The Wargame" for me. This game is on the same level of equality as an epiphany for me. (As corny as that sounds) I have used the search function many many times since being here and extracted tons of valuable info for my benefit.

I have a little bit of knowledge about many things. I cannot spit off armor thicknesses, vehicle names at a glance, historical data to the minute detail. I can however offer pleasantries, stimulating conversation (again IMHO) and every so often, humor.

I have seen these types of posts occur before and they are never pretty. As someone else stated, it certainly makes a newcomer a bit disturbed to post in fear of touching on a past hot point that will set off a flame war or for appearing utterly stupid to people that he or she is trying to become "online friends" (for lack of better words) with.

The old timers, cronies and charter member posters have a bond. I think that everyone is aware of this fact. (Or should be) I have no problems being not accepted into this bond, but IMHO, it is a give and take. I've been a member of this board for a whole of two weeks now. I have read damn near every post in those two weeks between work and home. This does not matter. I will do my best to not offend anyone.

I am not afraid to post my opinions, and don't really care whether others accept, disregard or ignore those opinions. I will, however respect the opinions of others, regardless of what they are. This is because I am able to post my opinions, whatever they are, in return.

Even though being a newbie, I hope that all posters here are aware no matter how hard you try, this board WILL change. There will be an influx of new persons such as myself. It will not remain the same. I hope this board will continue to function as a place where a plethora (I'm pulling out the big words now damnit) of information can be extracted. I have been welcomed warmly by many and it is very much appreciated.

I look forward to great gaming with many of you.

GI Tom

I know my place amongst the CM board rankings. I am one level above maggot at this point. Well, maybe not even that high yet.

------------------

To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich.

[Leclerc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Marshal??? Isn't that a guitar amplifier?

DeanCo--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the unit info box to get your answer

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-29-2000).]

[Darwin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Laurent,

That's all well and good. You guys can get off on your armor thicknesses and your historical backgrounds all you want. I'm happy for you, whatever melts your butter. I'm asking, is this the reason (or a major reason) why you people that have been here a long time think that the forum is degenerating? I would guess from your response that the answer is yes, although you didn't state it clearly.

DeanCo--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello DeanCo

This is my impression on it. Mind you I don't consider degenerate the proper term myself, change fits better IMO.

Back in the day when CM was still but a dream this forum was all about idea's and posibilities, on the 6th day steve gave us cheese, it was all about creation and tossing around theory with real world experience in debates about how best to simulate stuff. The group was relatively samll with nice cross of historians, researchers and veterans who kept the focus on topic. Coming here you could expect 90% of the posts to be on ballistics issues or metal hardness or simple grognard trivia. For me it was an intellectual environment, the peer pressure to post usefully was huge and somehow we generally have been extreemely courteous with each other.

Whenever we'd get new blood they would have to be de-usenetized. They would slam doors, spill coffee, yell across the room, send nukes at the slightest hint of a possible insult, etc. When the influx was still slow assimilation was not a problem, a few ripples on the surface. With the huge influx around beta time we lost our precious order, they were far to many to assimilate the old way. We're still generally polite, but it is not the bastion of politically correct argument it once was.

Such is the natural progression. We are no longer a think tank for BTS but with the game released the forum is not needed for that anymore anyhow as such matters will be taken to more private arenas. Many who came here for the old discussion will move on or retire, some of us will continue here helping newbies, feeling superior, etc, etc but the forum of old is gone for sure.

I don't mind it myself. With the game here it's playtime and all the silly people are very welcome. It's time to take a break before CM2 gets serious. Live la vida loca, que no?

[BFCElvis]

Darwin, you hit the nail right on the head. I lurked for close to a year and a half before my 1st post (which was around beta demo time) because the level of discussion was way beyond my expertise and I felt I had nothing I could contribute. Once the demo came out and there were silly posts popping up all over the place I new I could contribute to that and came out of lurking status.

I imagine by the time development of CM2 begins the board will go back a little to those heady days that you describe. In the meantime I am enjoying the party and very thankful for all the new smiling faces ranting about what has been a very long obsession for me.

Please note I did not say smilie faces but smiling faces.

------------------

"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[:USERNAME:]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

This is starting to sound like CM-anonymous.

"Hi my names Lewis and I am a CM lurker.."

Newbies are welcome to stay and oldies are welcome to leave. Big effing deal. Lets discuss something like why do tanks still target crews?

Lewis

[deanco]

Hi Darwin,

Well, thanks for filling me in on the history and background of this forum. I was unaware of most of this, so your post was very informative to me. So informative, in fact, that I find it easier now to "forgive" (that's not the right word, but whatever) some of the percieved "excesses" that I see, now that I know some of the background. (Doggone it, Captain LeClerc, maybe you were right about this here historical background ****!) And I am going ahead with my project, thanks to your input, so stay tuned.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

DeanCo--

[deanco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leclerc:

Look at the unit info box to get your answer

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-29-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you know what, LeClerc, there AREN'T any Marshals IN the game!! No Generals or Majors either! So there! I thought you were Mister Big Expert, and you don't even know that??? But you know what, I took your advice and did a little historical research and found an old issue of "General Player" magazine, where they talk about the Marshal LeClerc amplifier (I quote from page 36..ahem)

"The Marshal Leclerc had it's heyday in the 60's to early 70's as a low cost alternative to the pricier but better built Eisenhours and Pattons. The Leclerc's particularity was it's tendancy to produce bass frequencies almost exclusively, which made playing anything but a Farfisa organ through it an excruciating experience. Although later equipped with the Celestion CR-355 'Black Face' 12" speaker in an attenpt to give it more punch, the LeClerc never overcame it's initial design flaws. It did achieve noteriety though when it was used exclusively on The Archie's smash hit, "Sugar Sugar". It was also Karen Carpenter's amplifier of choice."

OK, LeClerc, I'm stopping here.

DeanCo--

[Leclerc]

Indépendamment des brillants résultats de ton école du rire, je me demandais combien de temps il te faudrait pour te rendre compte entre mon très mauvais anglais et mon surnom que j'ai la meme nationalité que toi( regarde ma fiche). T'es vraiment un petit génie.

PS: je sais très bien qu'il n'y a pas de maréchal dans CM et ce n'était pas le sujet de ma remarque, sauf à ne pas vouloir ou pouvoir comprendre. Ce que j'ai appris, c'est qu'il y a maintenant des.... dont il ne faut plus que je me soucie.

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-30-2000).]

[deanco]

Enchanté de faire ton connaisaince, LeClerc! Hé, on a le meme FAI aussi! Mais, desolé, je suis american (je suis desolé pour ça aussi un peu), pas français. Donc, pas le meme nationalité. Donc, je te prie de excusé mes fautes de orthographie. Ca fait 16 ans que j'habite a Paris. Allez, on va jouer au CM un jour, mais pour l'instant l'AI est un trés bonne adversaire pour moi! Je te dirais quand je suis pret. Allez, a bientot!

Et, c'est quoi, .... connards? Allez, soyez gentil, LeClerc.

DeanCo--

[This message has been edited by deanco (edited 07-30-2000).]