Real-Life Fanaticism

[Ron]

Since I have the dictionary out already:

'Berserk' - Old Norse berserkr, bjorn-bear and serkr-shirt.

[tss]

Fionn asked:

10 Cool points for anyone who can tell me where the word berserk comes from (think warrior tradition here)

Ghost Dog answered:

an ancient nordic warrior(Viking)that are subject to sudden fits of anger. Much like some people on this board

The actual etymology of the word is not completely clear, however. The most probable derivation comes from "bar" - bare and "skjorta" - shirt (or, the Old Norse equivalents of these modern Swedish words), i.e. someone fighting without a shirt.

In purest berserk tradition one should go into combat butt naked while biting one's own shield. Wild hairdos are a definite plus.

- Tommi

[Ghost Dog]

You´re quite right.One interesting point is how they achieved this state.Some scholars say they gnawed upon the rim of their sheilds inducing pain in dental area and thus getting quite mad,others got drunk or got high on mushrooms.Other vikings were probably quite eager to fight anyone with or without shirts.:¤

Ghost Dog

[Fionn]

Ah, I see I should have been clearer.

So far no-one has given the correct answer. You've given dictionary definitions but not what I was looking for.

Let me rephrase, how did one earn the right to be called a "berserker" ?

And while I accept that lots of Vikings got battle rage etc through using magic mushrooms are giving themselves gum disease hehe these aren't real berserkers...

Berserkers did something VERY specific to gain the right to be berserkers and go around attired as they did.

And FWIW, yeah, I think I'd be a good berserker .

[tss]

'Berserk' - Old Norse berserkr, bjorn-bear and serkr-shirt.

That was the other one possibility that I thought of when I mentioned that the etymology of the word is not clear. I just went to see the Swedish Academy's online dictionary, and found that they too derive it from "ber" and "bär" that are ancient forms of bear. (The word was "bärsärk" until middle 19th century).

One of the "original" berserks was said to be Bärvard Bjarke who served in the court of Rolf Krage, a 8th century Danish king. One night when Krage was attacked by his enemies, a large bear fought on his side and later in the fight it was found out that the bear was the spirit of Bjarke who had been sleeping at the time.

- Tommi

[Ghost Dog]

Ok,I got it.They were actually ancient beta testers.Before going on the usual plunder and pillage,they were handed out great slabs of stone.Upon these they tried to formulate the upcoming battle.Working round the sundial,using their mallets to inscribe the most holy knowledge of making a campaing to run smoothlessly and fun.And then their work were done,they handed down the slabs to the warriors,and sat eagerly waiting their return,because the inscribers were never allowed to participate.What usually happened when the warriors returned,were mayhem.The warriors were usually very upset with inscribers,because when they faced their enemy,the enemy had not the right colour,not the right weapons and not smart enough.So the inscribers fled,to Holland and took up writing childrens book.Oh,the word "berserk" actually means "person/-s that writes childrens litterature".

That´s what my grandfather told me anyway.

Ghost Dog

[Stephen Smith]

Alright Fionn-

I'll clear the air, and only post now when I have something very specifically game-related to say.

I apologize for posting the way I have. I will be very specific; I do not like the adolescent mood of this post, that mood was not always there, it really arose when you and Mad Matt got active. I was wrong for posting in the same manner, and it won't happen again.

I think you guys have made one of the best web sites, and unquestionably the best game page web site,I have ever seen. But I think your enthusiasm is, well, adolescent.

I don't like Mad Matt's personality; I think every time he posts, he does so to attract more attention to himself than to the game.

I didn't like the way you guys were treating CPT Manieri, and I said so (admittedly, indirectly, and again, I apologize).

I don't like the way you pass off your words with 'I had a death in the family, so my own words aren't my fault.' Unless you are Bill Clinton or 14 years old, that type of excuse just doesn't cut it.

I didn't like your response to my disagreement with you. I admit it-I sniped at you in the SECOND post. Again, a wrong move. But in the first post, I merely disagreed with you (reread it and see for yourself)-you actually started the sniping war this time, Fionn, with a snotty attitude toward a simple disagreement (which, as it turned out, depended upon a misunderstanding and a confusion between 'berserk' and 'fanatic' by myself, Josh, and you). Everyone is not going to agree with you all the time, Fionn. Grow up and get used to it.

Sorry for not being more direct in the past. Sorry for being petty and sniping. Sorry for not saying precisely what I want and moving on. So I do so now. I thought the discussion board was great before you guys got here. You came, and you have created a remarkable web page, and an active, exceptional community. You have milked and nurtured alot of enthusiasm-and I am thankful for the screen shots, stories, scenarios to come, and everything else. But I just don't like the way you guys behave, and I think the tone (though not the volume) of the discussion has degraded. When I read a post labelled "Mad Matt's a great guy! Come read his latest update!!" I get sick to my stomach!

Perhaps there is some kind of generation gap (I am in my mid-30's). It never occurred to me to come to the discussion page and read about Mad Matt's girlfriend's nose, or your family-I thought I was going to read about the game! I see this as a discussion-not a community! (my community is made of of people I actually know). Again, perhaps I and older people see the web and computers in a different way than younger people.

I'm not expecting to change anything, I don't want to get into a flame war. I'll repeat: sorry about my own adolescent postings in the past. I won't do it again. I don't promise to agree with everything that is said here, but I will disagree in a better tone.

Steve

[Lee]

Interesting about the berserkers. I knew they were fierce

warriors that fought in a crazed and frenzied manner and were much

feared for their ferocity but I didn't know about the first

one having fought as a bear on his lord's side in a battle.

[JoshK]

OK, here is what I don't get.

One, this is only a computer discussion board. This is not real life. I have never met in person a single other person on this board. While I may or not be fond of the content or tone of someone's post, that does not mean I know them. As a matter of practice, I could give a **** about what people who I don't know say. That does not mean I may not find it interesting, funny, annoying, etc. Only that, at the end of the day, I have nothing emotional invested in this board or anything said here.

Two, by my own logic I assume that others don't really care much about what I have to say, though I hope it is interesting, informative, funny, etc. Therefore, if I think that someone's discussion board personality is in some way annoying, pompous, immature, etc. the last thing I ever consider doing is giving a ****.

Third, if someone here were ever to insult me, please see #1 and #2. In short, I wouldn't give a **** about that either.

However, some people here are much more emotionally invested in a discussion board than I would be. Therefore, out of civility and courtesy, is it so much to ask that people make an extra effort to be nice to them. While I could care less if people flame me, some people do care. SO BE NICE or DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!

Its not hard.

[Fionn]

Well the bear answer is getting close but so far no one has gotten it .

Getting close though .

As for SS,

Matt got active in December 1999. I've been around since December 1998 on this forum. Hell I was around before it even became a BBS.

As for you not liking Matt's method of posting.. Take it up with him. It doesn't give you a reason to lash out at me. FWIW I don't post like Matt posts and I do know his posting exuberance takes some getting used to (he'll tell you I complained long and hard about it when we first met) BUT he is VERY sincere about supporting CM and he is a HUGE boon to the CM community.

Without him the CM site would be languishing without web-updating because I'm so busy behind the scenes. Also he has done some very valuable work for CM which will be included in the release version.

Trust me, someone who hasn't contributed one iota to the production of the game such as yourself has no right to comment on Matt the way you do IMO. (That isn't a flame it's just letting you know that what you "see" is NOT all you get with Matt. CM is appreciably better and better-represented and YOU are appreciably better-informed about CM because of Matt's efforts. You owe him and the ONLY reason you post about him like this is that he DOESN'T self-promote himself and tell you all the work he does.)

When you volunteer to help with CMHQ and spend a MINIMUM of two hours a day on it then you can tell Matt what you think of him. Until then you would do well to keep your counsel lest comments about being ungrateful arise.

I don't want to pressurise you but I'll just say that I don't like the way Matt chooses subject headings for his posts either BUT you've got to learn to accept people as they are. Sure everyone has their "rough edges" and while it is acceptable to try to smooth them a bit it's best to just accept them and appreciate them for all the great things they do.

E.g. Matt picks weird titles for his post headings and is a very exuberant guy. That's the rough... The good is all the work he has done which has been incorporated into CM, all the work he has done getting CMHQ up and running, all the time he spends in 1 on 1 work with individual visitors who have browser problems etc and all the great ideas he comes up with and the time he spends liaising and bouncing ideas off BTS. Without him there would have been NO smoke feature etc. When we first met I talked with him about "toning down" a little but to make him into another "drone" by removing his flamboyance is to lose the essence of Matt and THAT would be a real shame.

I answer lots of technical questions here and elsewhere. I answer questions 1 on 1 via the forum and private email. Without me there would be no CMHQ either. I spent and do continue to spend time on lots of behind the scenes stuff too. Whether you know it or not I was also an original alpha tester and gave a lot of input to the game. Now, I get upset (some would say too upset) when I feel attacked on the forum. That's MY rough edge. You don't have to like me (and I can rest assured that you don't) but the good far outweighs the bad PLUS most times I get annoyed it is only because some moron purposely comes in here attacking me so there are some extenuating circumstances sometimes .

If I may be so bold as to say it seems to me that your "rough edge" is tolerance and accepting OTHER people's rough edges. You complain about me wanting everyone to agree with me.. I don't want everyone to agree with me but I do object if someone disagrees and is unreasonable in their disagreement. I've changed my opinion when confronted with good, reasonable arguments many times. Yet, I see YOU complaining about Matt's behaviour and mine. If we're going to talk about tolerance here maybe you should look at tolerating others on the board more and with more good grace.

As for the death thing,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I don't like the way you pass off your words with 'I had a death in the family, so my own words aren't my fault.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did NOT use the recent death of a first degree relative as any sort of "excuse". I merely mentioned it as being a somewhat relevant factor to the fact that I'm not in a particularly good mood.

And frankly my opinion of you has just rock-bottomed. I merely try to explain some context for my statements and you use it to jab. Sickening.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> When I read a post labelled "Mad Matt's a great guy! Come read his latest update!!" I get sick to my stomach! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I've made it clear ON THIS FORUM that I don't like it when people post such things either. I asked that it stop in a thread when people started saying similar things about me and I don't say such things about myself.

So, instead of lashing out at me why don't you just either:

a) keep it to yourself,

start a thread in which you make this point to MATT.

If you're talking about justification I'd appreciate if you have a problem with Matt that you don't lash out at me but instead approach him with it.

Community...

As for your comments about community.. Over the course of a year here (some have spent more, some less) many people here have gotten to know eachother. We may not always agree with eachother etc but we DO care more about eachother than we would for strangers.

If you don't want to partake in the community which, like it or not, HAS grown up here then that is your business. It is EXTREMELY easy for you to skip off-topic posts. I suggest that you skip them instead of lashing out at those who choose not to limit themselves as you do yourself.

FWIW there is NO generation gap. I am certain of that. I am also certain that the "gap" is PURELY one of personal carriage and opinion.

Tolerance,

Lastly I'd just mention something about tolerance as it is applicable here. People disagree with eachother on here all the time. Sometimes things get a bit heated when people disagree violently but the FORUM COMMUNITY (see there's that phrase again ) has begun to take a role in self-policing such disagreements.

For example you can search and find several of my posts attempting to calm down situations where non-English speakers got themselves into trouble through misinterpretation, you can find a recent example (from yesterday I think) when Eridani tried to stop what he thought was a flamewar but turned out to be friends joshing eachother and today you can see JoshK interposing himself and trying to stop another flame war.

This all avers that there IS a community in being. I FULLY accept your right not to be a part of that community if you don't want to be SS BUT just not wanting to be a part of something which spontaneously formed here does NOT give you the right to lash out at others.

YOU do not see this BBS as a community. YOU want only rigidly game-related discussions. The BBS has developed to be a community as WELL as a purely game-related discussion forum. That you wish it weren't a community doesn't give you the right to attack it or members of it.

So, when discussing tolerance be sure to look at yourself and realise that just because someone does not behave as you wish or because the board develops in a way you don't like doesn't mean you magically get a right to start throwing punches.

You used the word maturity.. Let's see the maturity of spirit which allows you to realise that while Matt might be more exuberant than you wish this does not give you the right to attack him or me. let's see the maturity of spirit which realises that just because some members of the forum have developed a community spirit which you do not feel does NOT make it ok for you to lash out at one or some of them.

In short, there are other people here too. If they choose to play a game you don't like then it is up to you to accept that. They're not harming you or attacking you or damaging the community or you. When you sulk and lash out at them as they run past THAT is something truly damaging to the forum and community here.

The old line about wanting the serenity to accept the state of things might be good for you to think about here.

[Fionn]

Ps. Tried hard not to go point for point here or flame back.

Please take it in the spirit intended.

[Ron]

Semi back on topic regarding berserk/berserker, loosely quoted:

In Scandinavian mythology Berserk was the grandson of the eight-handed Starkadder and Alfhilde. He was famed for his reckless fighting fury, always going into battle without armor. Berserker is the name of the 12 sons of Berserk, from the 'sark' or shirt of bearskin worn by them. Later berserker was also applied to the bodyguards of several Scandinavian heroes and there is some association between berserker and lycanthrophy.

Ron

[elatvala]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Ah, I see I should have been clearer.

So far no-one has given the correct answer. You've given dictionary definitions but not what I was looking for.

Let me rephrase, how did one earn the right to be called a "berserker" ?

And while I accept that lots of Vikings got battle rage etc through using magic mushrooms are giving themselves gum disease hehe these aren't real berserkers...

Berserkers did something VERY specific to gain the right to be berserkers and go around attired as they did.

And FWIW, yeah, I think I'd be a good berserker .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the answer?

"The berserker's rage, during which the berserk might receive wounds, but due to his state of frenzy take no note of them until the madness passed from him. A warrior who continued fighting while bearing mortal wounds would surely have been a terrifying opponent."

Yes Fionn, you terrify your opponents, and no wounds seem to hurt you.

Am I right? Wrong? Close?

[Fionn]

Good guesses all round.

Elatvala,

You are correct insofar as you have described what made berserkers feared by their opponents. It was well said that while it was barely possible to kill a warrior overtaken by the berserker fury it was also certain that he who slew the warrior would die with him (basically, you might kill him but he'd kill you with his last thrust).

Gaelic mythology had something a little similar but it was called an "earth snake". Basically the mythology went that certain blessed (and at the same time cursed) individuals would enter battle and be overcome by a "battle fury" which would warp their bodies and minds and turn them into hellish killers without fear, scruples and who kept killing as long as a breath remained in their body. It was eulogised that the "earth serpent" carrying mystical energy had entered their body and caused the battle fever. Today we recognised this as the description of a berserker.

Ron is closest though. He correctly identifies the link between lycanthropy ( a fascinating subject BTW... Tracing the origin of lycanthropy legends through primitive tribes and legends is very interesting... In some tribes only women are supposed to be lycanthropes and it is felt that in those tribes it is used as an explanation for PMS (or PMT as I believe Americans call it) ) and berserkism.

Berserk was incorrectly applied to certain bodyguard units also but in those cases very few of the men in the units had earned the right to the title of "berserker". It was done with these guys just so they could inspire a bit more fear in their enemies.

A berserker was a warrior given to battle fury who went into battle either naked or wearing a bearskin ( it is more correct for them to wear the bearskin than be naked though). Ideally the bearskin they wore was taken from a bear they had killed in single combat to prove their "credentials".

Basically they were whipped into battle frenzy using drink and hallucinogenics and had to enter a pit with a hungry bear and kill it with their bare hands. If they did then they skinned it and wore its skin in battle.

Obviously this was the "ideal" for proving oneself a berserker and very often the deeds performed to become a berserker were not quite so awesome... Many berserkers seemingly killed the bear from long range with spears and then proclaimed themselves berserkers. As with any decoration for courage it became sought after and politics etc all got involved until eventually it was cheapened so much that entire bodyguard units and families were declared as berserkers.

In its pure form though a berserker was a man who, when forced into battle fury, killed a bear in hand to paw combat (or used a sword or axe to kill it). I wouldn't accept spearing a bear as qualifying one as a berserker but would accept the bestowing of a "family heirloom" type bearskin on a young family member who had shown himself susceptible to battle fury as being proper enough since killing a bear single-handed is just pretty mad .

So there were grades of berserkers.

Grade 1 were the guys who killed bears single-handed.

Grade 2 were warriors who were susceptible to battle fury and were given bearskin to wear in recognition of this.

Grade 3 were all the politicos, chiefs kids etc who were labelled berserkers without proving themselves cause it was fashionable.

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Fanaticism-hmmm...

The 1st Independent Polish Parachute Brigade crossed the Rhine several times at night during Market-Garden. This included one staff officer swimming over, reporting the brigade had arrived to the 1st Brit. Abn., and then swimming back over again. Also, the brigade crossed at night to a supposed "better" crossing zone than their commanding officer's (Sosabowski's). This zone was selected by the XXX Corps commanders. It resulted in the Germans basically wiping out the crossing.

Also a nominee: The Brit. airborne officer who used to walk around with his umbrella at Arnhem (I think it was Anthony Deane-Drummond, but I'm not sure).

Another: Entire 1st British Airborne (for several cases of fanaticism: Sicily, Italy, and Market-Garden).

How 'bout those Brit. 6th Airborne guys who charged (literally) the gun battery on 6 June? Came out with something like 14 men active out of 50 who charged.

And finally, a tie: the German Airborne at Fort Eben Emael (Belgium, 1940), or any unit in the Huertegen Forest.

------------------

Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn.

Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member!

[Guest ChrisC1009]

Bear Shirt = Berzerk

As in what Ghost Dog said... Viking/Nordic type who wore a Bear Shirt and was highly pissed.

Good Thing they didn't wear wool sweaters as Sheepzerk doesn't quite have the same tone to it

[Fionn]

Or even less frightening "Syntheticwoolzerk" . Ooh, scary

[guachi]

Oh my God!!

It's a linen-serker! Clad in a flowered bed sheet!!

I like Matt's over the top posting style. Brings a smile to my face. Too much seriousness would make this board boring.

Jason

[Mark IV]

I must break my recent silence to support the MadMatt Posting Style. I'll take my grins where I can get 'em.

Fawning sycophancy is not my normal milieu, but the attempt to build a cult of personality around a figure such as Matt is breathtaking in its audacity.

The expenditure of an entire belt of exclamation points, along with the Overhype mode of self-parody, contributes to a general lightening in the mood of a board that must daily deal in death and flames.

He has also posted some deeper insights into game play that show something resembling thought, at least in a marketing sense.

As noted elsewhere the board has become a community, and levity, seasoned with actual information, is not out of place. Individuals are perfectly free to find humor and occasional off-topic remarks offensive, though their identities are being carefully noted for re-education after the Revolution.

In the meantime, may the light of smiles and the music of laughter never penetrate the dark grim stillness of their monk-like cells. Have a very serious day.

[Username]

I would like to add a couple of things to this topic.

Fanaticism represents an idealisticly ingrained state of mind. Religious or political or whatever ideas rule over "normal" human thoughts like self preservation during battle conditions. I would suggest that SS, Japanese, Perhaps Russian Guards are good examples. The awareness of the dangers are very much known but are outweighed by the sense of duty/obligation whatever to an idea or person.

Berserk men or units are more in the family of "deranged" behaviour. The presence of danger or loss of close comrades or sense of helplessness causes men to fly into the face of the enemy. It is a sort of "breaking" in reverse..instead of running away with total abandon.. you run at the enemy with a similar sense of abandon. Alot of the US airborne seem to behave this way during close combat assaults. Sort of like wild indians or civil war southeners.

The major difference is the lasting effects of fanatics and the recovery of berserk units. Fanatics I guess can go berserk LOL.

As far as the game goes.. fanatics should be faster recovering from suppression, morale effects, loss of men should have less effect.

I guess above elite units. maybe go berserk easier.

Berserks would charge enemy and disregard losses till they destroyed something.

Its funny how people confuse bravery with fanatisim and mental disorders. Just controlling your fear and functioning takes alot during battle.

Lewis

[Gen. Sosaboski]

You know, in Normandy, there were several US Airborne charges with bayonets and rebel like yells. One time, the Germans simply thought the guys were nuts and said "Discretion is the better part of valor". All the defenders were seen fleeing, leaving their MG and rifle positions behind.

Tears your heart out, doesn't it Fionn?

------------------

Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn.

Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member!

[Username]

They called them screaming eagles didnt they?

Yelling like this in combat could work both ways. Against green or younger troops, the tactic could be very effective as a trigger to make people take off like rabbits. Against trained troops like marines, the japanese were gunned down because they gave themselves away. Marines would just turn in the direction of the yelling and target the area.

In Burgetts book 7 roads to hell, it seemed the airborne guys considered closing with the enemy the only way to fight. And from the sounds of it, it was pretty intense.

Lewis

[tss]

Fionn wrote:

In its pure form though a berserker was a man who, when forced into battle fury, killed a bear in hand to paw combat (or used a sword or axe to kill it).

Actually, a long knife is a lot better weapon to attack a bear with than either a sword or a axe.

Here in Finland we don't have a tradition of berserks (the only ones mentioned in sagas are Swedes from Åland) but one of the archetypes of Finnish folklore (much like American 'Frontier Hero' or 'Cowboy') is (and has been for some thousands of years) the 'Bear Hunter' who kills bears with only a knife.

The trick is to get the bear to attack you. Just before the bear attacks it rises to its hind legs and prepares to hit you with its paw. At this moment you dive into its embrace and bury your knife to its heart killing it instantly. Of course, this method is not recommended for first-timers and you should have a pretty good understanding where the heart is, as you will get only one chance. Also, the traditional end of a 'Bear Hunter' is to be found lying dead in an embrace with a dead bear...

It's much more difficult to kill the bear with one strike if you use an axe or a sword and fighting a wounded bear will not be a pleasant experience.

I think there has been a few verified instances of hunters killing bears with just a knife. The legendary Martti Kitunen who lived in middle 19th century killed over 300 bears during his life and some of the kills were with a knife.

I think it's interesting to note that long after firearms had replaced crossbow and spear as a hunter's weapons of choice, bear hunters used spears. A flintlock rifle was just not reliable enough to be used against a bear.

- Tommi

[Username]

Could the Bear go 'Berserk'? Could a rabid rabbit be a fanatic? Dannel Boon kil a bear 2. This board has a meandering quality to it. Can I just start discussing wild frothing trolls at any moment?

Speaking of deranged behaviour, There is a little known psychosis called PGRS. Pre-Game Release Syndrome. One of the tell tale signs is the inability to stick to a topic of conversation and having hissy fits and pissing contests.

Lewis

[Lurker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Can I just start discussing wild frothing trolls at any moment?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard that berserk trolls often scream whilst charging the enemy, but concentrated MG42 fire is rather effective in breaking up the charges.

Never take yourself too seriously...

-Lurker