MG Mannschft Posted March 2, 2000 Share Posted March 2, 2000 I Really dont understand this "LMG" And "HMG" deal, a MG-42 Is Both and can be changed in it's roll in seconds. As I said, what the heck would you use a "HMG" in a Assualt? Let's just leave it at MG-42. Or you could even call it "MPMG-42" Multipurpose Machine Gun. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted March 2, 2000 Share Posted March 2, 2000 Phuh! That sure is expensive I thought you guys used replicas or something... ------------------ CCJ aka BLITZ_Force My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my new Textures V2.0 photo Gallery and my music while your there, or grab a CM Wallpaper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 2, 2000 Share Posted March 2, 2000 The reason I and some others are using terms like LMG42 and HMG42 is purely because we are relating the discussion to how MG42s are simulated in CM. Helge, The reason I gave the low round number is because a HMG42 team reduced to 1 man would carry 1/6 of the ammo load of the 6 man team. 1/6 = about 15 bursts which is only about 200 rounds of ammo. My point is simply that the only way to currently switch a HMG42 into a mobile LMG42 (bipod mount) in-game would have to involve recalculation of ammo etc and is all very messy. Also, the LMG42 team I was referring to is something you guys haven't seen yet. It is a two-man team carrying an LMG42 around. Limited ammo but a nice punch while it lasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 2, 2000 Share Posted March 2, 2000 MG, the reason we diferentiate between the two is because the German Army (and all armies) does exactly that. The MG42 in the LIGHT role is served by 2 men, with additional ammo being carried by others if possible. The MG42 in the HEAVY role is served by six dedicated men that have no other job but to serve the operation of the gun. Those having the MG42 as an LMG *never* had a tripod, those with it in the HMG *always* had it with a tripod. Yes, the gun itself was exactly the same, but the outfitting and equipping of the men surrounding the weapon was different, as were its purpose. The HMG team, in real WWII life, did not change roles. They did not ditch their tripod and go running into battle as assault troops. No matter what physical possibilities existed to allow this, it in fact did not happen. Sure, I don't doubt that oddball things happened where a survior might take the weapon on his own, but oddball things happen ALL OVER the battlefield and we simply can't simulate all of them. I'll also say again, the Germans and Allies all used HMGs in the offensive role depending on the situation. To say that this wasn't the case is factually incorrect. And if you want to simulate a battle in CM where HMGs were not practical, simply don't give them to that particular side. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted March 2, 2000 Share Posted March 2, 2000 I can't believe anyone would take a $15,000 MG out and play with it in the dirt. Weapons get so beat up in the field. One that has such monetary and historical value should be for ooh and ahhing and not for fouling up with carbon. I mean if I had the real deal I might take it out and fire real rounds occasionally but blanks just make them absolutely filthy. And range firing is much less damaging than running around in the field. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why not have a guy pick up an MP44 or Thompson when it is dropped? Or have one guy run ahead 500m and scout? Or have one guy jump in and lug around AT ammo? Etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Great. Expect to see that in CM2. We should get a MTO&E force for the battle and then be able to "task organize" for the battle at hand. Imagine 20-man HMG42 teams with 4 MG42s and 10,000 rounds..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 I don't see why you can't just make the HMG team turn into a LMG team when enough of the team is dead. I'm gonna give me usual disclaimer before I post anything like this again. I am not a programmer nor have I fired an MG 42 (I fired off a belt of an M60 though ) This is just my view and it's probably stupid. Okay. Couldn't you just say when the HMG team reaches 2 men left and the team moves the ammo is divided by 3 and the team can move. Or if one man is alive the ammo is divided by 6 and the team moves more slowly. Wouldn't seem to hard but again see my disclaimer. I guess I'm asking for a explaination from BTS as to why this is "a bit much to simulate". ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Colin, where in Canada were you able to fire such weaponry? The Cadets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Mannschft Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Cunningham: Taking a $15,000.00 Dollor gun out to "Get messed up" is not the case at all. Having it just sit there only to live fire once every year would be sad, Plus the gun dosent get as much wear and Tear as you might think, It's not Dragged through the mud, and the germans didnt drag it through the mud. Also, what would we represent an MG-42? A M-60? No way. It has to be a Real MG-42 And I carry it with pride onto the "Battlefield." Steve: With Big time Software, I must take a moment to say you have Great game here, I just needed to Commend you here. Also, It would be great to see a PAK 38/40 On the field, Better yet, A Flakveirling 38 and Push it around for Heavy Fire! (The California Historical Group Has a 20mm And I helped push it around last year, It is GREAT!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Colin, the HMG only becomes immobilized when down to ONE crew member. To have a unit automatically change form wouldn't be good as with 2 men left the HMG42 is still a potent weapon. Also, a reminder that when a crew served weapon is moved after sustaining casualties, ammo is left behind if the remaining men can't carry it. To oversimplify here, if 1 man can carry 10 units of ammo, the unit has 60 total and 6 men, losing 2 men while stationary will keep the ammo at 60. But if the unit goes to move then it will only take 40 units of ammo with it. MG, thanks. I think what Cunningham meant was that you could lug around a $500 parts kit w/dummy receiver instead of a $15,000 real thing. Yeah, you can't fire it, but it still looks pretty nasty Anyhoo, the debate about using real stuff reenacting vs. repro is a discussion best not got into here. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Thanks Steve understood. See this is why CM is gonna be sooo much better than anything else. Major Tom, Uhhh...I don't remember where it was. Some where around North Bay. I was on vacation. Not in the cadets although I was thinking about joining. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 You guys are great. 1. I love Black Adder. It's so funny. 2. I think paying 15'000$ for a MG42 is way too much, especially if you use it in bad condition were it could get scratch or even worse destroy (although it should be pretty hard to do, but nevertheless it could happen) 3. You all are making a fuss about that immobilized stuff. But if you look at it as those soldiers were men, your argument sounds silly. (I hope I don't offend anyone) Imagine it's the war, you have seen blood and death so many times you just want to puke. Now imagine that all of your HMG squad dies and you are the only one left. I don't think you will be carrying that heavy gun all by yourself to assault the ennemy. I think that you are pretty much in a state of shock if not panic and running with a heavy gun and a lot ammunition doesn't sound like the think to do to calme down and get over the stress of the situation. 4. It's true that I am not a professional soldier. I have down my share of it (4 months in Switzerland + every year two weeks), but not all yet. But this thought comes to my mind in a no stress situation, no bullet overflying my head, no screaming pals in pain, no tank firing (you get the point). 5. Good to see expert taking part in the game. I can't wait to put my hand on it. ------------------ Veni, vidi, vici Julius Caesar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Mannschft Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Jeff: I Aggree that the Cost of a Real MG-42 is Really Expensive, However What would you expect with our "Silly" Gun laws, Now Im not Interested in Depaiting about them so I'll end that right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Mannschft Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Okay. I Have a Layout of the Basic "HMG" Squad: 1) Team Leader: He Commands the Squad and Carries a MP-40. 2) Gunner No. 1 Carries the MG-42 And a Pistol. 3) Gunner No. 2 He Carries Two Ammo Cans of 250 Rounds And a Pistol 4) Gunner No. 3 He Carries the Tripod and A Rifle 5) Gunner No. 4 He Carries Ammo and a Rifle with Spare Barrels 6) Gunner NO. 5 He Carries More Ammo. Set it up Like that, Remember The "HMG" Team have other Weapons other then the MG-42... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Fionn I see. I was just a little bit irritated with you mentioning this small amount of ammo. Helge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 The TO&E for an HMG team is exactly as you say in CM. When we did the TO&E for various nations (especially the Germans!) there were piles of TO&Es lying all around us. What a nightmare It took nearly 4 days to get it all into code, not including all the days of research. Probably 80% of that time was spent doing German TO&E. Not because we are Germanofiles, but because the thought of "more is better" seems to have been applied to organizational elements with reckless abandon Small arms fire from a Team is not directly simulated but instead each unit gets a generic self defense capability in close proximity to enemy infantry. Reason is that the crew of a team weapon was dedicated to the task of keeping the weapon functioning, not using their personal small arms. Obviously they would crack off a shot or two at long ranges when things weren't hectic, but this is very difficult to simulate acurately and is largely ineffective in any case. For more on this check out the (see the British Firepower thread. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Mannschft Posted March 4, 2000 Share Posted March 4, 2000 Well, Obviously, the Team Leader would be blasting with his MP-40 if anyone came with in about 150 meters. Also, Unless you poped up out of nowhere or where so many units attacking it, I think its silly that a MG-42's crew could actually be pinned down at long ranges, like with Garand/Thompson/M1 Carbine fire, as what happened to me a few times, Plus in "Offencive/Defencive role" I dont have enough "Turns" on the game, I Flank to the hilly side and get half of the down with only minimal losses, but it cuts me off and I cannot finnish them off. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 4, 2000 Share Posted March 4, 2000 Any thing made out of flesh and bone tends to hit the dirt when bullets start flying around. Simple fact of warfare Well aimed fire from a Garand will kill you just as dead as something from a MG42. The thought of having an HMG team remain unsurpressed any time it is shot at it totally unrealistic. BTW, "long ranges" is more like 500-1000m at CM's scale, and no squad can shoot that far. So if your HMG team is being beat on by small arms fire from a squad, they must be within 200m or so. That is hardly long range. As for the scenario length, this is up to the scenario designer. Time is an important factor in warfare and having a turn limit forces the pressure of time upon you. Scenarios can be over 60 turns long IIRC. Problem is your troops generally only have enough ammo for about 10-15 minutes of engagement, so a long turn limit should only be used for scenarios where there is large distances (several thousand meters) to cover. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Mannschft Posted March 4, 2000 Share Posted March 4, 2000 Steve, Thats not Really What I ment, But you have some good points there. It's somewhat hard to tell scale in the Game, but at the same time, there is a Natural Feel to it.. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 4, 2000 Share Posted March 4, 2000 MG, I'm starting a new thread up on estimating distances. I typed out a nice answer and I thought it would be better to not have it burried in this thread Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts