Spotting Ability of Hiding Units

[Smoker1]

This may interest some of you. I moved a team through tall pines to a position about 10 meters from the edge of the trees so they could see out of the woods. The team was in position and hiding 30 seconds into the turn and saw nothing for the rest of the movie.

Five seconds into the next movie the team was fired on by a tank in the open only about 150 meters away. They did not see the tank until it opened fire. The tank was sitting there all the time because all approaches to the location of the tank would have been visible to the team. The tank was that much in the open. There's no way it could have moved into the position it fired from without being spotted. (No sound contacts made either).

My question is this: How can a tank in the open spot a hiding infantry team in tall pines before the team spots the tank? Especially when the team has been in hiding for a full 30 seconds.

Are hiding units penalized in spotting ability because they are hiding? This would seem reasonable to me if true, but I'd sure like to know if this is how the game works. I will hide less often.

The only other partial explanation I can come up with is that the team was spotted by the tank as they (the team) moved into position and the tank did not fire because it had hide orders itself which were removed on the next orders phase. Still, I think the team would have spotted the tank during the last 30 seconds of the turn while they were in position facing it. We're only talking 150 meters here, tank in the open, clear dawn.

There is a spotting lesson here, but I don't know what it is yet. Again, does a unit that is hiding have more trouble spotting enemy units than it would if it were not hiding? Thanks! Smoker

[Sharpie]

I'm having the same problem so I'm running some test QB's playing both sides. However the book says on page 159 "Units that are hiding have their spotting capabilities reduced."

I'll let you know how I get on.

[PeterNZer]

There may be some spotting issues, especially at night, which BTS are dealing with.

Best to wait and see?.. hehe.. so to speak

PeterNZ

[Smoker1]

Thanks Sharpie!

I just read that in the manual myself. I just never noticed a reduction in the spotting ability of hiding units before. It's not an obvious thing to pick up on. I'm very interested in the results of your tests.

Smoker.

[Smoker1]

I've encountered the night spotting issues many times at dawn on overcast days too. In those cases I always saw units I shouldn't be able to see according to the LOS tool.

In the case above I clearly should have been able to see the tank just as he saw me; unless spotting ability is greatly reduced for hiding units. Smoker

[deanco]

Hi folks,

We're probably moving to previously treaded ground here, but here's my 2c.

On the one hand, if I don't hide my units, they spot better. OK. But they also run the risk of shooting at some crew or squad 350m away and thus giving away their position to the entire enemy army. OTOH, if I tell them to hide, they conserve ammo, but may give rise to the situation mentioned above where they are hiding so good they don't see (or shoot at) what's right in front of their faces, so to speak. And there doesn't seem to be a compromise command, like, 'stay alert and spot but don't shoot until I say so'. That's why I've started using sharpshooters in this role. They fire at will (and thus spot well) but are very hard for the enemy to spot so I can get them out (sometimes) after they have done their spotting chores. Still not a perfect solution but it's my way of getting around this Catch-22 type situation.

DeanCo--

[Smoker1]

Sharpshooters are great for use as scouts. The problem is that they are SO good at seeing and not being seen that 6 of them for 150 pts. can totally remove FOW for the side using them. For this reason I try to get my PBEM opponents to agree to a max of 2 sharpshooters.

I guess the solution is not to hide your advance teams. They will see the enemy that way and probably take fire if the enemy is there, but they will have done their job. Also, it's probably best not to act on what the scout teams see (don't see) for a solid minute after they are in their positions. If they arrive at a position near the end of a turn and appear to see nothing, and you act on that info in the next orders phase you could be asking for it. They may spot something 5 seconds into the next turn and you've already given orders assuming nothing was there. Smoker

[David Aitken]

I once ran a forward observer across a field towards a treeline, which he almost reached by the end of a turn – and at the very beginning of the next turn, suddenly a Wirbelwind materialised literally in front of his nose and put lots of holes in him. It wasn't in the trees – they were woods, so it couldn't even have come out of the trees.

------------------

Guderian's anger was monumental. He struggled for words. "To say that the troops are to blame – look at the casualties!" he raged. "Look at the losses! The troops did their duty! Their self-sacrifice proves it!" Hitler yelled back. "They failed!" he raged. "They failed."

[This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 10-24-2000).]

[deanco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoker1:

Sharpshooters are great for use as scouts. The problem is that they are SO good at seeing and not being seen that 6 of them for 150 pts. can totally remove FOW for the side using them. For this reason I try to get my PBEM opponents to agree to a max of 2 sharpshooters.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Smoker,

Hmmm...I guess we're back to this gamey/non gamey discussion again. 6 sharpshooters? How many points per side would that be then?

I honestly don't know whether I would call that gamey or ill-advised, really. 150 points will buy you a platoon of infantry capable of inflicting real damage on the enemy, not just a few guys popping off shots here and there (and usually missing, I might add).

Furthermore...well, I'm not a grognard, but I try to use common sense to decide what to do. I think a good strategy is :

1) Find out where enemy is.

2) Take appropriate steps to neutralize him.

Seeing as though 2) is impossible without 1), that makes 1) super important, right?

I guess my point is if someone wanted to buy 6 sharpshooters in a 1000 point game I would just think that that opponent put a very high value on recon...which I can surely understand! I personally would not do that (although I too think recon is super important) because I think it's a waste of points that could go towards REAL firepower or be better spent elsewhere. As far as being gamey though...well, I'm not entirely convinced. But what do I know. Maybe historically you just didn't find 6 sharpshooters in a large attack force. That's another ball of wax, and one I'm not qualified to discuss.

DeanCo--

[Topi]

In QBs vs AI I was throwing some shermans and mg-carriers fast towards the enemy flank trying to encircle it. To my great surprise all vehicles went around one spot on road without it showing anything special. Only next turn I found out that there was roadblock! It seems that AI rerouted the vehicles around it without them seeing it? (They were plotted to run straight along the road and only deviated when encountering this "invisible" block.) Likewise fast (and buttoned) recon vehicles sometimes collide with enemy and only see them several seconds later - sometimes only the crew bailing out from the wreck sees that there was a tank 2 meters away So it seems that every now and then the random factor in spotting gives a bit unlikely results with both infantry and vehicles alike.

[This message has been edited by Topi (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Smoker1]

David Aitken,

I think all units, including sharpshooters and FOs, have trouble spotting while they are running. Your FO was just unfortunate enough to run straight into a Wirbelwind. The forward observer OTOH was not quite finished with his dash to the woods at the end of the movie so you got no info on the Wirbelwind due to poor spotting while running.

Deanco,

In a 3,000 pt. armor meeting engagement with modest hills, large map, and moderate trees I used six sharpshooters. By the second third of the game they had infiltrated deep enough that I knew where every enemy vehicle was at all times. The vehicles would occasionally slip out of view but I still knew where they were since there were very few places I could not see. On top of that, all the enemy tanks had to stay buttoned at all times (I killed two TCs).

In some situations, such as open maps, sharpshooters might be less effective since they can't infiltrate as easily without being spotted. In general however, due to the absolute spotting limitation of the game sharpshooters are very powerful IMO. For one less tank or platoon you can wipe out FOW for yourself. This may not be worth it at the 1,000 pt. size but from 1,500 on up I wouldn't hesitate to give up a tank for complete removal of FOW and guaranteed buttoning of opposing vehicles.

Using sharpshooters in the same role as half squads would be used appeals to me. The sharpshooters are more difficult to see and see better themselves. The problem is determining when the sharpshooters cross the line and begin taking advantage of the absolute spotting limitation of the game.

Smoker

[This message has been edited by Smoker1 (edited 10-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Smoker1 (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Sgt. Steiner]

Hi. In reference to the original post, I

have found that combining "ambush" with

"hide" greatly extends a hiding unit's

spotting range.

This works well with infantry, and extremely well with anti-tank guns. I just finished the operation "Driving on Mortain", and used hide and ambush orders with my Pak40's to

great effect against the oncoming Shermans.

Hope this was of help..

------------------

"Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow"

[Smoker1]

That's very interesting Sgt. Steiner.

It makes sense too. The only problem there is that you would have to have your scout teams in C&C, thereby risking an HQ unit on the scouting mission.

Cross of Iron was a great movie wasn't it.

Smoker out.

[Sgt. Steiner]

True, it does put HQ's at risk, but is an acceptable trade off to get increased spotting ranges for hiding troops. Much better than them not seeing the enemy until they're only 50 feet away!

And yes, Cross of Iron is one of the all-time greatest. Pity Sam Peckinpah only made one war movie..

[Gpig]

I have recently experienced the same odd sighting behaviour. While playing as the Germans , I had a Panther and a Mk 14 hiding in ambush along a lane of Bocage. They were about 200 meters from a T intersection (the allied advance would soon come to that intersection). Then I saw the sound contact graphic for an allied tank approach the intersection. Due to the Bocage bordered roads, there would have been no other approach possible for the tank (the time frame was *before* the bocage cutting rhinos had been attatched to allied tanks). Both of my tankers had perfect line of sights on the intersection and ambush markers in place. I watched the sound contact tanks (first tank had been joined by another) come to the intersection, stop, turn their turrets and start shooting. Both my Panther and Mk 14 were taken out in two shots. The next turn, my bailed crews spotted a firefly and and a m4 II (canadian). I was a bit miffed, to say the least. How could my tankers have not seen them tanks turn that durn corner? All experience levels were regular. (Clear day.) This actually happend a couple of times in this scenario (downloaded from the Canadian HQ website: Steel Fields). Very frustrating. Any ideas?

I may be beating a dead horse, here . . . but having my spotting abilities reduced while hiding in ambush seems a smidge idiotic. If I've got a perfect line of sight on a trigger area (and can hear enemy armor coming), I wouldn't put on a welding helmet once I decided to hide and ambush that spot. Seems that if you're hiding in ambush, you're spotting abilities should actually increase (at least in the target area).

Hmmmm?

[Sgt. Steiner]

Hmm, apparently "hide and ambush" doesn't work in all situations. I only just recently began trying the tactic, but it does seem to help. I.E., if I had one of my anti-tank guns just hide, the enemy was on top of them before they knew it.

When I set an ambush point several hundred meters away, the hiding gun crew "unhid", and began firing at a Sherman as soon as it crossed the ambush point. So at least in some situations it helps to counter the spotting penalty imposed by hiding.

------------------

"Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow"

[Doug Beman]

It was pointed out some time ago that tall pine terrain is virtually devoid of underbrush and stuff, the things that troops hide behind. They can't all hide behind the same tree trunk.

DjB