Kanonier Reichmann Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 I have a query with regard to air support in Combat Mission. I'm playing a game at the moment (pre-designed scenario) where the Yanks must have fighter bomber support in the form of re-inforcements as by about turn 15 I could hear the plane(s) up in the sky. Now, the Germans have at least 2 Flak trucks (37mm & quad 20mm) plus a Wirbelwind still alive at this stage and on turn 15 I noticed the 37mm AA take a snap shot (1 burst) into the sky while the truck was being fired on from 3 different sources. I assumed the fire couldn't have been too accurate due to all the heat coming onto the AA unit (75 mm gun, 37 mm gun & a 50 cal. HMG all firing) and yet my air support seems to have disappeared. Now I'm pretty sure the plane wasn't shot down as I would have heard the crash noise sequence and yet my air support seems to have disappeared. I'm wondering does Combat Mission simulate either the plane being spooked off from being fired on, never to return again OR is there a chance that it may return once I eliminate more of the AA assets the Germans have (which I'm gradually doing). In other words, is the TacAI smart enough with regard to fighter bombers to hold off any attack run until there is little or no significant AA fire likely to come its way? Any views on the subject would be appreciated. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 bump--good question ------------------ No, it can't wait till CM2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 I've had a game recently when my OWN fighters attacked my own units! I asked my opponent if he had fighters, and he admitted to not having any. Of course, he might have been lieing...he was Germans though, so Im not sure if they even have air support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 Air units can and do attack your own troops. It is supposed to model the fact from the air, it is difficult to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 I dunno, I always though a Daimler AC looking a bit different from a King Tiger, even from a distance (he had an armor force, I had a mech force). Specially considering that my units were behind buildings and in woods while my opponents approaching wave of Panzers was wide in the open. Yet the Fighters never even got near them! I hate air support... ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar: I dunno, I always though a Daimler AC looking a bit different from a King Tiger, even from a distance (he had an armor force, I had a mech force). Specially considering that my units were behind buildings and in woods while my opponents approaching wave of Panzers was wide in the open. Yet the Fighters never even got near them! I hate air support... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Moving at better than 300 mph, all tanks probably look like blurs, and the pilot just picks a likley looking one to attack. Maybe someone should do a graphics mod of allied tanks with orange recognition panels on the top? ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 Sir, I find it very hard to tell when one of my planes is shot down (Since the crash sounds are usaully covered up by manny other explosion sounds). Mabye if when a plane is hit you see the shadow fly by, but have smoke/fire/debrease flying form the back. Then once it's off board you hear the explosion sounds.... (sound good?) ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 I find because of the expense, you never run into allied air power in quick battles. For that reason, Germans never buy flak. Ideally, air would happen enough that the Germans would buy flak more, but I am not sure how to work this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schugger Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 I think the pilot has decided that the airbase is a much safer place after encountering such heavy AA fire. A quote from the manual (p. 85):"...Heavy AA fire can make a planebreak off it's attack early..." What I would like to know is, if the expeiance level of an FB makes any difference when it decides to break off or continuing the attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualfreak Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 Of course, he might have been lieing...he was Germans though, so Im not sure if they even have air support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schugger Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 I've recently visited the Remagen bridge ( or what is left of it)and the museum there. Of many intersting things in their exhibition there was one that strikes me: The german Luftwaffe made intense bombing raids for several days to bring the bridge down, and that was in march 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted October 1, 2000 Share Posted October 1, 2000 After 1943 appearances of the Luftwaffe over the front were notable mostly for their rarity. Allied air coverage was daily as long as the weather permitted. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted October 1, 2000 Share Posted October 1, 2000 I would like to comment, but I really can't. You see, I only bought air support once. I played through the game, got slaughtered because I expended points on air support. Well, you purchased air support, you say, whay aren't you happy Pat? I am unhappy for this reason: THEY NEVER SHOWED UP. Grrr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 1, 2000 Share Posted October 1, 2000 Air support is more known for its silliness than utility at current price levels. Don't get me wrong, it can work for you, and a good strafe of enemy infantry is nice, but I usually think of it as 300 or more wasted points. If you are playing US -- you cannot afford to waste them since you are going in outgunned in Infantry and Armour. If you are playing German you almost could waste them, but only the largest QB offers enough points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted October 1, 2000 Share Posted October 1, 2000 Hehe, y'all need a basic course on air support. 1. they hardly ever show up, 2. If they do show up, they might bomb the wrong guys, 3. Even if they bomb the right guys, no CCIP means their aim sucks, 4. Any hit, even a rock, makes an airdale RTB It's true in real life, hint why you think we have air recognition panels? Also the Germans got air support very rarely, since by this stage of the war, the Luftwaffe was busy dying on the runways of the few bases they had left, even when they managed to sortie, they sometimes got whacked by friendly fire (In Operation Bodenplatte, something like half the German planes were shot down by friendly ack) ------------------ Pzvg "Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted October 1, 2000 Author Share Posted October 1, 2000 Thanks for the responses to date but they don't seem to cover the situation I'm describing. To clarify, one & only one of the German AA assets being a halftrack mounted 37 mm Flak unit managed to get a quick burst of fire at my already arrived fighter bomber (since I could hear it in the sky). I severely doubt that one burst would have hit the aircraft as the AA unit was being targetted & fired on from 3 different sources of mine at the same time so it's accuracy would surely have been affected plus there was no sound of an aircraft plummetting to the ground after being fired on. Therefore, my question is, has the fighter bomber been scared off by that ONE burst since I have not heard it buzzing around in the sky since OR could it simply be standing off some distance away until the virtual pilot considers it is safe to return to the battlefield once more German AA assets have been destroyed? Thanks again Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 1, 2000 Share Posted October 1, 2000 Basically I think everyone has answered you. Air is a worthless waste of points that bothers the Germans so little that you never see AA purchased. Likely one burst was enough to scare the pathetic woodchuck flying the obsolete bird dog modeled in the game straight from the skies. I think in this case the game designers got it wrong, they thought Cab Rank meant cab drivers flew interdiction rather than pilots. Honestly, most air did not fly FEBA anyway, although German units lived in terror of it and assigned a huge number of AA units to it, producing a lot of AA tracks of different types. If they left, they are probably gone for good. Trick: Never buy air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted October 1, 2000 Author Share Posted October 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: Basically I think everyone has answered you. Air is a worthless waste of points that bothers the Germans so little that you never see AA purchased. Likely one burst was enough to scare the pathetic woodchuck flying the obsolete bird dog modeled in the game straight from the skies. I think in this case the game designers got it wrong, they thought Cab Rank meant cab drivers flew interdiction rather than pilots. Honestly, most air did not fly FEBA anyway, although German units lived in terror of it and assigned a huge number of AA units to it, producing a lot of AA tracks of different types. If they left, they are probably gone for good. Trick: Never buy air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the response Slappy and I understand & agree with what you're saying in tgerms of purchasing them but in this case the pre-designed scenario has allocated fighter bombers to me so I had no choice in the matter. I just wonder if they're ever coming back & if anyone else has experienced a similar situation. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 1, 2000 Share Posted October 1, 2000 Well, I have only had air used on me while I was an American (Germans are the only ones who can afford to program the points away) and what it really did was button my tanks. That's about it. You may want to create a scenario that tests if air comes back when faced with AA and report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted October 2, 2000 Share Posted October 2, 2000 I have had contradictory experiences with air power. In one pbem, when I bought a Jabo, the opponent's sole force cnsisted of 5 ubertanks. In two passes, the jabo failed to scratch a single one. However, over the weekend playing Fionn's AAR scneario as the Germans, when the opponent's Jabo showed up, it got THREE passes, and when it had finished, it had immobilized two of my three remaining tanks and gun damaged the other, and killed or immobilized FIVE halftracks loaded with infantry! Needless to say, my attack, which was going fairly well, took a turn for the worst... Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahauschild Posted October 3, 2000 Share Posted October 3, 2000 I dont remeber the after action report, and on what web page i read it. But there was a battle where the germans had to advace along the long axis of the map. The battle was going in the german favor. The within 2 or 3 turns a Allied Bomber/Fighter wiped out two panthers and several HT's. It also strafed a Allied Platoon and killed several guys. It evened the battle out enough to allow the allied player to regroup and achive a DRAW. I belive Airplanes are risky to say the least in CM. Pending on your luck, or lack thereoff you could get your money worth from them, or they could never show up, or worth, they could clobber your own forces. In general i dont think i would purchase Airplanes, and if I had to play a Scenario wich had airplanes on my side, well I would know not to bunch up my troops, since I would at least be aware that there is a lose kannon flying across the battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Petrovsky Posted October 3, 2000 Share Posted October 3, 2000 In reading all of the replies and from my own experience with close air support (limited) it seems that spending the points on a bomber is a GAMBLE. I only use them on defense and it seems that they kick some butt or don't impact the battle at all. But they are definitely not a conservative tactic. If you feel like being aggressive buy one. There is two sides to every coin. If you confident on your arty spotting skills then buy them, but if u miss a lot and that is a waste of points then buy a bomber and leave it up to them. One thing is for sure, if they show up and hit a target or two it's a lot of fun and it really keeps your opponent guessing because no one expects that top penetration on their perfectly hidden tank. If you see black planes it's the British, if you see white planes it's the Americans, if you see no planes at all...it's the Luftwaffe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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