Why Dont You Quit You Bitchin' And Remember Whats At The End Of Road! CMHQ!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Madmatt]

As quoted from Kelly's Heroes and seems to be very applicable for tonights update. Graphics...Everyone wants them to shine and are quick to judge what they see. BTS has always said that the textures were beta (umm thats why I have the BETA to test and not the gold! ) and to understand that what you see is very much a work in pregress. However they still look great and tonight for the first time ever we have posted a genuine comparison THEN (demo) and NOW (or as current as I have!) style POTD...

Also be sure to check in at our sister (brother/co-/whateverthehell) Combat Mission site at wbr.thegamers.net as Wild Bill and the Boy's have goodies to spare!

Madmatt...

Stop by the Chat later and hear me brag about the new Pentium III I bought today!

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

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[Guest Madmatt]

Damn! I got that quote wrong.. I think he says 'LINE' and not road and there is of course a classic Madmatt typo in the title too... (SIGH) should have been YOUR and not YOU...

Madmatt...

You can have a nice warm glass of shut the hell up!

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

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[CEO]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

Damn! I got that quote wrong.. I think he says 'LINE' and not road and there is of course a classic Madmatt typo in the title too... (SIGH) should have been YOUR and not YOU...

Madmatt...

You can have a nice warm glass of shut the hell up!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From Happy Gilmore. Another Classic. The bob barker fight is hi-larious.

[Lee]

Pentium III? You coulda had a V8...er, I mean an Athlon.

I'm looking forward to my new system as well. Current plans call

for an 1100 mghz Athlon, 128 or maybe 256 (depending on prices)

meg of PC133 ram and a NV15 or voodoo 5500 (depending how their

performance stacks up) video card. Can't wait to see how it runs

CM (and any other game I can throw at it ).

[Tom Servo]

What chat, there's a million of them now...

eh oh well.

Hey Madmatt, I have a request, I wanna see more british para screen shots

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Formally Tom punkrawk

"Tomorrows killed by yesterday..." -Link80

Go to my soldiers at war page~!! http://www.geocities.com/soldiersat_war or I'll sick a goat on you!

[Guest Madmatt]

Work with Athlons daily...Not impressed and NO followup posts screaming that I am an idiot and that I need to BOW down before the mightly alter of AMD and worship the ATHLON god aren't going to convince me either.

Also the new system I just picked up is NOT faster than my home server. It is just a new Win 2000 Advanced Server based system that MAY be playing a large part in CMHQ's future...More to come on this...

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

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[Eridani]

Hehe, no forcing you to bow down...

just offering condolences

<g>

Serious question though... A feature which I REALLY have been lookin for is different color ground textures for scattered trees (same as grass, maybe a little different), woods, heavy woods, Ect... it would be far easier to determine between the woods types visually that way... Some screen shots of the full beta I've seen appear to have this, others dont... leaving me rather confused...

Do all woods have the same color base, or does it differ based on the type of wood (which I think would be far more realistic, not to mention convienient...

-EridanMan

[This message has been edited by Eridani (edited 03-17-2000).]

[Guest Madmatt]

Hmmm...I don't know..I will look into this but my gut feeling is that the base color is dependant on the elevation of the actual tile just like a 'clear' tile would be but with a slightly different palette, but its a good question and I will try and find out!

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[Bil Hardenberger]

Eridani

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do all woods have the same color base, or does it differ based on the type of wood<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The color of the woods base are indeed slightly different for different types, and you can now tell at a glance whether you are are looking at woods, or scattered trees.

Bil

[Roushman]

Just coming out of lurk mode to make a few comments:

First off, I would like to commend Mad Matt

and Fionn for all the good work they have done both in playtesting and with CMHQ. The

site has done a good job of delineating the

features of this much anticipated magnum opus

of Charles and Steve. It also gives us a

good chuckle from time to time.

Secondly, I want to express to Steve and

Charles my thanks for what looks like will

be a long time resident for the hard drives

of many a computer wargamer. I preordered

last fall and monitor the board daily in

anticipation of the release announcement.

My comments are regarding some of the recent

bitching about the delay in release. I

thoroughly agree with not releasing CM before

"it's done"; anything less would set the

critics to howling about an unfinished, buggy

product. However, I think that some of the

complaining could have been avoided if the

way that the pre-release info about CM were

handled differently.

I think that a lot of us here were under the

mistaken impression that the beta demo was a

fairly advanced build and that release was

just around the corner(i.e. about X-mastime).

[This also reflects how good the game is when

it is capable of engendering so much excite-

ment in such an early form]

Then we are polled on whether we want the

game released without some of the netplay

features rather that waiting another 2-3

months, again implying that release was

imminent.

Finally, we find out that a lot of the delay

is due to the textures being redone from the

beta form that we first saw (interestlingly,

this after some of Cool J's mods came out);

however, in all the later beta builds that we

have been seeing from CMHQ, there hasn't

(until yesterday) been a whole lot that was

different.

I would respectfully (and retrospectively)

suggest that the following could have been

done to avoid some of this confusion:

1) the demo should really have been termed

a late alpha build

2) one should not imply in a poll that a

release is just around the corner when it

is not

3) if progress on the project is going to be

reported on by a secondary site they should

have access to and show examples of the

newest builds on a regular basis

4) maybe even the setting up of this forum

was a little premature (as can be evidenced

by the way that it at times is either so far

off topic or when, in frustration, if degen-

erates into flaming)

Just some thoughts; I don't intend to tell

Steve and Charles how to do things, but

maybe something to keep in mind before we

start this all over again before the release

of CM2.

[Guest Madmatt]

Good comments and had BTS done it all over again I am certain that many aspects would have changed. One thing you said however is a little misleading. CM was/is NOT delayed because the textures aren't done. The textures aren't/weren't done because it was not a priority for them to be done until this point in time. Think of Charles and Steve as parallel processors. They are quite (and most often DO) work on many things at once and that is not always clear here and on CMHQ.

There HAS to be a lead time with stuff that is posted on CMHQ and perhaps my rapid fire and urgent delivery style is misleading to some but that is the way I like to do things. Don't confuse CM with CMHQ as they are different. CMHQ supports CM, but we do it in a much different way than Steve or Charles would probably ever have ever done if they were self promoting CM at the same intesity level. It's probably safe to say that my approach here and on CMHQ has broken every computer wargaming ethic and rule regarding internet promotion and fan support that's ever been established and thats intentional! CM is unlike any computer game I have ever played and my and Fionn's support for such also needed to be unlike any other. Some day (hopefully soon) everyone will have nice little CD's of CM chugging along in their systems and all this rhetoric and anxiety will be wiped away with your very first bootup of the treasure that is this game. Of course then the comments, questions and differences of opinion will come out too, just like they always do and thats fine...

You think I rustled some feathers this time around, wait to you see what I have in store for CM2!!!!

Madmatt

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[Roushman]

Thanks for clarifying things a little. With Steve and Charles so busy with the game it was easy to attribute to CMHQ a more "official" than unofficial promotion role. Please feel free to crank out more pics of those new textures for us to drool over.

[Guest Madmatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roushman:

Thanks for clarifying things a little. With Steve and Charles so busy with the game it was easy to attribute to CMHQ a more "official" than unofficial promotion role. Please feel free to crank out more pics of those new textures for us to drool over.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, aren't I just the busy little promo machine?!?

Gee, I wonder if Steve and Charles might have an extra one of those Panther Prints they were going to give out with the very early pre-orders?!? Seems fair! Millions of free promo for a cool picture of a Panther!

Damn, I wonder what I will have to do to get a print of a King Tiger!?!

'Hey Charles! Pull up an extra chair I wanna help program CM2!!!!"

Combat Mission 2: Beyond the Squishy Poo!!!

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

As quoted from Kelly's Heroes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking of which, I just checked dvdexpress and fouindthat the DVD will be released in a couple months... woohoo! Widescreen Kelly!

[Fionn]

Roushman,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Finally, we find out that a lot of the delay is due to the textures being redone from the beta form that we first saw <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. You did NOT find that out.

2. It IS untrue.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> (interestlingly, this after some of Cool J's mods came out); <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you can take my word for it that the improvements in graphics etc was planned from many, many months ago and is not in response to anything CoolCol did. God, I'm getting sick of these "conspiracy" theories people crank up all the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> however, in all the later beta builds that we have been seeing from CMHQ, there hasn't (until yesterday) been a whole lot that was different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. I think you should look at the pictures we post more closely. There ARE major differences there. Not our fault if you haven't noticed them before.

2. We just show you stuff we think is cool. We don't have a brief to "showcase" builds etc to you. We just play games and take pics when we see something "cool".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> if progress on the project is going to be reported on by a secondary site they should have access to and show examples of the newest builds on a regular basis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FWIW we do get the latest builds.. We are both beta testers after all and we DO show examples from latest builds. We don't show everything and until you can find a way to pay me to do this full-time I won't have the time to document everything that goes in.

FWIW if anyone DOES want to pay myself and Matt full-time to do this I have a feeling we'd both jump at the opportunity hehe . So far though no-one has come forward with any offers . ( BTW IF someone pays us full-time to cover CM 1, 2 etc then I'm quite sure we'd take requests ).

Key phrases here include:

1. We don't get paid for this.

2. We aren't an "official site" or anything like that.. CMHQ is around simply because Matt and I co-operate to keep you updated. Without us you'd have NO POTDs etc.

3. You have NO contract with us or right to demand work from us.

4. Just remember that usually the most prosaic answer is the correct one . One of my lecturers always used to say that we should never forget that "Common things are common".

5. Just treat us and BTS with respect and we'll do likewise. I know that Matt and I don't like it when we feel people make demands for things or make rash assumptions ( Matt hates the demands thing while I hate the "assumptions" thing ).

[Guest rune]

Fionn,

Please...how could you leave me a straight line like that

Then I can ASSUME you do not make DEMANDS of Madmatt?

Sorry...couldn't resist. Fionn and Madmatt both know i have a lot of respect for them and the work they do FOR FREE.

Rune

[Roushman]

Fionn: Indeed, it is a good thing that you and Madmatt are a team; his laid back approach balances out your fiery tendency to fight back when you think that an attempt at constructive criticism is meant to be personal .

Please re-read my post if you don't think that I being respectful to both the folks at CMHQ and Charles and Steve; some of the critics who posted previously might even have deemed it "fawning" in my expressions of admiration for both of your teams.

I do not subscribe to any "conspiracy theories" in regards to CM's content being driven by CoolCol's efforts; but it does seem that the comparison pictures posted 3/16/00 were considerably better looking than what we have seen before and also they look at lot better than the screenshots over at the Raiders.

The comment on they recent delays is based upon Steve's latest reports primarily discussing progress being made on new textures.

You have to remember that when you fellows choose illustrative screenshots, subtle changes may be difficult for one to appreciate. Remember, you are the guys who have the builds and are able to cruise around looking at the new stuff from more than just isolated screenshot perspectives.

No, we do not have any legal or monetary contracts with you gentlemen at CMHQ, but we are depending upon you as our "mice in the corner", someone who gives those of us, who are not beta testers, a glimpse into the progress of the game that many of us have only dreamed of.

That's my thoughts for now; I'll fade back into lurk mode rather than cause any further non-intended controversy.

[Guest Madmatt]

Me laid back?!? Hehehe, man thats a first!

To tell you the truth I was a little surprised by Fionns perceived vigor in his last message as I didn't think you meant any animosity toward us. I think that Fionn was just responsding like he did due to all the times in the past where similar comments were made that WERE meant to be mean or offensive to us. Everybody gets on edge now and again and some recent threads went way overboard and rubbed my buddy the wrong way so try and not take it too personal. Besides it IS St.Patty's day so we can overlook my favorite Irish man as he celebrates some guy running rats outa town or something like that!

Madmatt out...

p.s. Now Fionn, you play nice with the lurkers!

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 03-18-2000).]

[BFCElvis]

Fionn,Matt,Steve and Charles...I understand what the Rousemeister is saying very well. When I was reading the very first Alpha AAR I hung on every word and looked at the screenshots and they they looked a little dorky but the GAME sounds incredible. Then we got the Beta demo and all that stuff that looked dorky before became full of life. It didn't look dorky at all anymore. Then we see screen shots on CMHQ and they look great. They also look like just parts of the game that we haven't seen before but not THAT different. Just different stuff..if you know what I mean. Then I see the POD the other day with the church....It was like...WOW!!! this looks way way way different.Much of the sublty of differences in the PODs can be lost on someone who hasn't seen the game in action. So where you guys have seen the changes and differnt looks and maybe even come to take them for granted in some ways, we don't even fully realize the extent the updates in look or game play....and I am sure despite your efforts (I don't know how you guys find the time to do what you do) we will not understand completely until the game is in our grubby hands.

I hope I didn't babble so much that my point was lost.

Love,

Elvisstillhavesomepissandvinegerinme

[Fionn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Then I can ASSUME you do not make DEMANDS of Madmatt? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can indeed. Hmm, I don't think Matt can even remember the last time I said to him to have something ready for a specific date. Articles come from proofing and I pass them on to Matt and he puts them up when he feels they should go up. I even have an article I've written which I REALLY want to be posted (The Soviet Tank Development one Matt... Time to inflict some pain and LONG reading on our visitors IMO ) but I don't think Matt wants to. End result... 3 months after I suggested it to him it still isn't posted and I haven't ordered or bitched to him about it at all.

So, it seems that many people have VERY incorrect ideas of how I do things, our relationship and how we treat eachother/divide things with respect to CMHQ. Probably the CMMC GMs are the ones with the best idea of how things work since they get to work closely with me too.

Roushman,

Ok, I can admit when I've made a mistake... I apologise. I guess I was reacting more against what some OTHER people have been saying etc than you and unfairly (and incorrectly) reacted when you posted.

As Matt says some recent threads have gone a little overboard and sometimes one can only "hold it in so long". The fact I was out "celebrating" before posting has everything to do with my post IMO . Again, I hope you accept my apology and we can wipe the slate clean so to speak.

Ps. I believe you may be the first person ever to call Matt the " laid back one" . I've got a fiery Irish temper but I DEFINITELY lay claim to the "laid back one" title if the choice is between Matt and myself .

Elvis,

Yes, it is VERY true that we aren't wowwed by many of the things you guys comment on because we're exposed to them gently whereas you get to see a change "all at once" as it were.

E.g. I think that over the past two weeks at CMHQ some of our POTDs have shown off new features which are much more impressive than the new church but I guess you guys may not have picked up on the things in these pictures we intended to show.

Ah well, when you get the Gold in a non time-specific matter of time you'll see for yourselves

[Roushman]

Fionn:

Apology accepted; I have myself been too quick to take others to task after "having a bit of the creature." I'd have been celebrating with some corned beef and green beer if not for the fact that we have a German bishop who refused to grant dispensation for St. Patrick's Day this year.

[Lee]

Madmatt: The Athlon does have superior FPU performance (critical for

3D games) compared to the PIII. And once the new 1100 mghz Athlons

with full speed L2 cache come out the PIII's will have no chance

of keeping up in much of anything.

Oh, and the Athlons, unlike the fastest PIII's, will actually

be available when they are announced. And you won't have to pay

an arm and a leg for Rambus ram to get great performance with the

Athlon, either.

[Eichmann2]

For what it's worth gang, I think the new textures are the BOLLOCKS! (That is a compliment, by the way)

[Guest KwazyDog]

"Finally, we find out that a lot of the delay

is due to the textures being redone from the

beta form that we first saw (interestlingly,

this after some of Cool J's mods came out);

however, in all the later beta builds that we

have been seeing from CMHQ, there hasn't

(until yesterday) been a whole lot that was

different."

__________________________________

Hi Guys, Ill just add a couple of coments here

Firstly, as the guys have said, the final touches that have been being worked on in CM are certainally not just due textures, there has been much more than textures being tweaking. Somtimes I really am beginning to believe is that people think Charles has been sitting around with nothing to do as he has run out of 'things to programs', which isnt the case

As Madmatt and Fionn have said, the graphics changes have been planned for a long time (before the beta demo). Each vehicle you see in Combat Mission takes a long time to do. For those interested here is a idea of the process.

Firstly, models have to be researched, at probably around 2-3 hours (we have to have piccies from all angles which can be hard to find) from both books and on the net. Then comes the modelling, which can vary in time. Models have to be built at the lowest poly count possible whilst keeping the detail we need, which is time consuming, probably 6-7 hours for a turreted vehicle, more for open topped with interior details (and dont talk about the humber! ).

Next comes colouring up the models so CM knows what to do with them (long story), Id say another 1-2 hrs goes there with tweaks. Then comes the texturing (oh-ooh, theres that word, I swear after CM goes gold Ill never say it again! ). The guys out there whom get into texturing the vehicles (and Im sure there will be plenty after release) seriously have 80% of the work done for them. Ther hardest part here is lining up the textures from on a blank model, with so guilds to work from. This process takes about 4-5 hours, more for the complicated ones.

So, considering how many vehciles there are in CM, you can imagine how many hours its taken to do them. What Im am getting at here is that we didnt even have time to think about tweaking other textures before the beta demo (and it certainally wasnt a knee jerk response to anything). What this should all tell you is that there have been things being worked on in CM that arent related to textures, and Id finnally like to put to rest this rumour that textures alone have been being worked on (because its kinda wearing thin ).

CM is and has been having the final touches put on (as Steve has said) in many little areas, and every day that passes its release is getting closer

I know people wont accept this (becuase many including Steve himself has said it) but I wish people would trust me in this ONE little thing, you are all going to be 100 times happier that CM is released when it is done, instead of earlier when it wasnt.

[Guest Madmatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lee:

Madmatt: The Athlon does have superior FPU performance (critical for

3D games) compared to the PIII. And once the new 1100 mghz Athlons

with full speed L2 cache come out the PIII's will have no chance

of keeping up in much of anything.

Oh, and the Athlons, unlike the fastest PIII's, will actually

be available when they are announced. And you won't have to pay

an arm and a leg for Rambus ram to get great performance with the

Athlon, either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well now, we have Mr. little tech head trying to tell me all about the Athlons!!! Well Lee, you get an honorary:

WARM GLASS OF SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!

I have reasons while I will NEVER go the Athlon route and I will trust my 12 plus years of day to day hands on support with desktops, servers and laptops over pure stats anyday. Enjoy your Athlon as I am sure hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of others will do in the near future but Madmatt system are pure Intel all the way... Not that that is saying much.

Madmatt

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