Spoiler - new scenario as argument in favor of Pacific Theater CM

[Supertanker]

I was one of the ones greatly disappointed when BTS stated that they would not be making a PTO version of CM ever. The justification for this decision was that it mostly just involved assaults on fortified or fixed positions, and they found that boring. But, I think the GD shows us that logic compels a reconsideration of that decision.

Now the GD has been released, and many folks seem to be having great fun with Valley of Troubles. That scenario is, of course, an assault on fortified positions. So BTS, you have at least established that these kinds of scenarios are not a guarantee of boredom.

I presume you will argue that doing those kinds of scenarios over and over and over will be boring. On the contrary, people seem to be making slight changes in the force levels and playing VoT over and over and over. So repetition of these types of attacks should not induce boredom, either.

Now, go read an account of Bloody Tarawa. A well-designed series of scenarios patterned upon that battle would be awesome, and the AI would be well-suited for providing a worthy opponent.

Have I changed any minds over there? If so, yeah! If not, it was worth the shot. Guess I will have to start designing "PTO-like" scenarios when the final version arrives.

Brad "Supertanker" Wohlenberg

[KiwiJoe]

I totally agree. The valley is great fun played from both sides. I think assualting Islands with landing craft and naval bombardments would be just as good if not better.

Bring on the samurai I say

[Mattias]

What BTS really said was that, firstly, their plate is full for the time being and, secondly, that they do not feel they are enough in the know as far as the "CM level" details of combat in the PTO goes.

Hence no plans for a PTO CM at this point.

A humble and respectable enough answer if you ask me.

M.

[Supertanker]

Actually, Steve wrote:

"It isn't our area of expertise and the nature of the ground combat is far less interesting to us (lots of bloody static battles and beach landings)."

Taking the cynical view of human nature that I do, I viewed the second part as the real reason (i.e. they find those types of conflicts boring), and the first as more of a secondary defense to ward off people whining at them in an attempt to change their opinion. I could be wrong.

[Guest Blacksilver]

I'll volunteer to be the squeaky wheel and move this thread back up, at least momentarily.

I agree wholeheartedly with Supertanker. Expertise can be acquired (or bought). The description of ground combat in the PTO as "a lot of bloody static battles and beach landings" (a) is a gross oversimplification, and ( doesn't mean (as VoT demonstrates to some degree) it can't be fun to simulate.

The key would be good scenario selection and design, so that PBEMers and online gamers aren't stuck hiding in caves waiting to be killed. I have to believe you could get 50+ hair-raising scenarios without doing a single root-em-outta-the-caves scenario, even if you leave the Chinese and Soviets out of it.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On May 8 Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally. We were told this momentious news . . . "So what" was typical of the remarks I heard around me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--Pfc. Eugene Sledge, K/3/5, Okinawa

[Zamo]

Blacksilver,

"With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" - By E.B. Sledge, great book. Did you ever read Manchester's "Goodbye Darkness"?

I am hoping someday we might see a CM or CM clone portray the "scorpions in a jar" fighting of the Pacific island campaign, but BTS has made their decisions and reasons well known on this issue, and I think their reasons are valid (if unfortunate). Oh, well. We'll see what sort of hacking we can do with the scenario editor. Perhaps not first rate, but, I imagine it might be possible to cludge something interesting together.

[bh109]

I reccomend Utmost Savagery by Col. Joseph H. Alexander,ret for some excellent history and accounting for amphibious tactics in the timeframe of Tarawa. Col Alexander served as an assault amphibian officer in Vietnam,and seems to be quite the student of Amphibious Ops. He has written several other excellent books on the subject as well.

It would be Bloody,And Savage,and would make an excellent topic for a Game System like this one.

I'd also like to see Antietam done someday..

-Bob

[This message has been edited by bh109 (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Zamo]

As an aside, I just browsed through the BMP directory in my gold CM demo directory to look at the uniform bitmaps and see how easy they might be to change to USMC herringbone and Imp. Japanese regalia, WOW! What terrific art BTS has done. I never really noticed how good the details were while playing. Check out that directory sometime and look at the uniforms and accoutriments.

The good news is it COULD be done. At least superficially. You'd still have 7.92mm german ballistics for the jap 7.7mm, etc. but....I think I'm going to have to get one of the those neat "Uniforms of the Imperial Japanese Army" books and start playing with the scanner and photoshop!

[dumbo]

"lots of bloody static battles and beach landings"

Hmmm rather an exagerration I think and based on the last few years of the USMC's experience primarily.

I would hardly call the first few years of the pacific "static" and Burma, China and even manchuria would be very interesting.

That said I think the Russian Front should be done first. (Actually I think it should have been done before the West front but there ya go).

[Guest Blacksilver]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zamo:

Did you ever read Manchester's "Goodbye Darkness"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't yet, but it's now on the list. Thanks for the recommendation. I thought Sledge's quote particularly apt for this thread.

I know BTS has stated repeatedly their intention not to do the PTO, but minds can be changed. We just need to apply some persistent, gentle and very respectful pressure. After all, CM 1 isn't even out yet. (BTW, I also agree that the East Front should be next, which will be a huge undertaking.)

I'm intrigued by the idea of doing a rough facsimile with texture mods. I suck at that sort of thing, but I wonder if we could get a coop going and share the mods . . .

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On May 8 Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally. We were told this momentious news . . . "So what" was typical of the remarks I heard around me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--Pfc. Eugene Sledge, K/3/5, Okinawa

[DanE]

Actually, Steve wrote:

"(a)It isn't our area of expertise and (b)the nature of the ground combat is far less interesting to us (lots of bloody static battles and beach landings)."

Part A = The PTO is not their area of expertise. Sounds good enough for me. I would much rather Steve and Charles put their expertise (ETO) to good use in designing new games.

Part B = Steve and Charles are just not as interested in this area. Also sounds good enough for me. Why should we expect them to do an area that is not as interesting to them? I would love to see a great PTO game, but I would want the designers of that game to be experts in the PTO and I would also want them to want to make the game.

Perhaps before CM 4 is finished, somebody will come along and make a PTO game that will be worthy of mentioning in the same breath as CM.

Do we have any volunteers out there?

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Dan

[Guest Mirage2k]

As for those of us who ARE craving beach landings, I did see a preview of a CM scenario that involved troops crossing a river in landing craft...I can't remember what it was or where I saw it though...maybe I was just tripping

-Andrew

Survivor: AP US History Exam

[Zamo]

Yeah, I know Steve and Charles have no desire to go here, but I am hoping somebody will. I read "But Not in Shame" a few months ago and it really set me on fire to simulate the Japanese onslaught during the first few years of the war. Especially the Phillipines debacle, and Burma. I hope somebody makes this into a two part game, ala before and after say August of '42 (When the Japanese swept across the Pacific). Or maybe the battle for the "Island of Death" could be the final part of the first game, thus setting the stage for a post-Guadalcanal sequal (where the Allies get a chance to sweep across the pacific). Wishful thinking. I'd like to see BTS make so much of off CM I-IV, that they might see fit to hire somebody who IS interested in developing a Pacific version. Again, wishful thinking...

Semper Fi!

Zamo

[Guest smbutler]

I think the CM format would be perfect for modeling the LRP's (long range penetrations) of the Wingate's Chindit's and Merrill's Marauders. These nasty and surreal small unit engagements (mostly Allied ambushes and Japanese counterinsurgency strikes) would play out accurately. After playing the Valley of Troubles, I'm pretty sure CM could model

Burmese terrain.

By the way, there's a new bio of Wingate (who I believe to be a real life model for

Copola's--not Konrad's-- Col Kurtz) out. Has anybody read it?Quite a fascinating person.....

[Black Sabot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k:

As for those of us who ARE craving beach landings, I did see a preview of a CM scenario that involved troops crossing a river in landing craft...I can't remember what it was or where I saw it though...maybe I was just tripping

-Andrew

Survivor: AP US History Exam<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Andrew,

you probably saw the 82nd AB's river assault at Nijmegen. Go to the Combat Mission HQ site. It should be in the screen shot gallery (be-forewarned, there is spoiler info in there).

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"I do like to see the arms and legs fly"

[Morthomme]

there are "rising sun" from talonsoft on pto, i have great fun with soft, the campaign on kokoda trail was great.

on book :touched with fire , author eric bergerud, big book on land warfare in the south pacific.

ADJ