Combined Arms & the Defense

[L.Tankersley]

Over the course of several PBEM attack-type QBs, I have found that in my experience the attacker usually wins pretty decisively. This may be because I and my opponents can't defend worth a darn. However, I wonder if there isn't more to it that that.

In another topic a week or two ago, I posted a comment about how US combined-arms forces in particular tend to be handicapped by the relatively low allowance for support-type units: even a 1500-pt force can only purchase one infantry company because of the cost of the weapons ("support") platoon. Playing QBs as the Americans, I frequently find myself dramatically outnumbered in manpower (often 2-1 or worse in squads, although somewhat less in actual head count due to the size of the US squad).

My feeling is that the combined-arms force structure handicaps the defense (particularly the US for the reasons above) and that an "infantry" force would be better suited for this role. An infantry force has a much higher proportion of points available for support - for example, in a 1500-point force, a US player could buy 2 full companies (with weapons platoons) and have lots of support points left over to buy AT guns, instead of being more-or-less forced to buy a tank or couple of TDs that are likely to be outnumbered, outarmored and outgunned by their likely opposition. AT guns are better suited to the defense because they are easier to hide and harder to spot, and they can make up in numbers what they lack in mobility. And having a second company of infantry on hand is a lifesaver when you're facing a battalion's worth of enemy infantry.

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Berlichtingen]

One method I've found that seems to work, is take an Infantry force on the defence. No where is it written that both sides have to take the same force mix.

[This message has been edited by Berlichtingen (edited 08-28-2000).]

[Wolfe]

Try Glider or Parachute Companies. Glider Co comes with 4 platoons (12 men/squad), 4 .50cals, 2 M1919. Paras have 3 platoons (10/squad) and 9 3-man M1919.

You might also look into purchasing some individual MGs (especially the M1917; available thru Dec44). Nice FP, lots of ammo. MGs aren't perfect, but they can do a lot to make up for a lack of infantry. As can well-placed artillery.

BTW, if you can do what Berli suggests and sucker someone into playing you Combo vs. Infantry (you defend as Inf), that'll definitely solve your manpower problem. It's a real PITA to have to attack the entrenched AI when it gets to choose all infantry and you're stuck with a combo attack force. You run out of ammo before your opponent runs out of men to kill!

- Chris

[Toad]

I might generally agree that being the defender gives you an advantage in not needing mobility as much as the attacker does. Obviously, the attacker must *move* and come to you.

However, I would be very worried being the defender against a very mobile enemy, without some mobility of my own. If none of my defences can move and my attacker can move and move quickly, it won't take long before he's moved to where he can hit me, but I can't hit back.

For example; he could attack, discover where my weakness are, and then retreat only to re-group and re-attack where I'm weak. And I have no mobility to re-arrange my forces while he's re-grouping.

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--

Toad

Ontario, Canada

[L.Tankersley]

IMO the piecemeal approach doesn't work that well. If my opponent is coming at me with 3 companies, I want more than one company to fight him off with. Buying support units a la carte they actually cost more than as part of a higher-echelon unit. I could, I suppose, buy one company and 3 or 4 independent rifle platoons, sans company HQ and support elements, and buy a few MGs/bazookas to round out the force, but this seems kinda hokey to me. Plus, those extra company and weapons platoon HQs can come in mighty handy.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Oberst Angsthase]

Speaking of defensive options, I would like to see a fortress option added to the combined/armour/mech inf/infantry selections. It would be great to be able to make a section of the West Wall in a QB, by increasing the amount of fortifications that can be purchased.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Buying support units a la carte they actually cost more than as part of a higher-echelon unit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Reg M1919 are only 1 more point each than those that come in the Heavy Weapons Platoon. And when buying the HW plat, you also get extra units (Zooks, 60mm mortars) you may not want or need.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I could, I suppose, buy one company and 3 or 4 independent rifle platoons, sans company HQ and support elements, and buy a few MGs/bazookas to round out the force, but this seems kinda hokey to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, it may not be perfectly kosher as far as adhering to proper OOBs, but I really can't see giving up one of the more important items in a defense (MGs) because of this. I certainly wouldn't blame my opponent for buying extra MGs with the points they're allotted. Trying to get reasonably historic force compositions is one thing, but gutting your defensive capability isn't worth it.

It might make perfect sense, however, for two opponents to agree that platoons may only be bought as part of a company; while support weaps may be bought individually. This, of course, wouldn't apply to games with small point values since it wouldn't be possible (I think 700 points or less).

Incidentally, the Am Rifle Heavy Weap Co comes with a platoon of it's own. Thanks for making me check; I didn't realize that.

And you're right that Co commanders/Platoon HQs can be very handy at times, but for defense, MGs are worth their weight in gold. Never leave home without them.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 08-28-2000).]

[L.Tankersley]

What I typically do with an American combined-arms force on the defense (or even on the attack, for that matter) is buy a rifle company with usually one extra platoon (either rifle or engineer -- I rationalize this as being attached from higher HQ, particularly in the case of the engineers) and usually an extra .50, an MMG or two and possibly extra bazookas. Again, the limiting factor is the support points. I _could_ buy additional rifle platoons, but I _can't_ get any more support weapons and that's where I feel the lack.

I've often looked longingly at the US heavy weapons company; the support cost is simply huge. With an infantry force (or maybe mechanized? must check) it might be pretty sweet.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What I typically do with an American combined-arms force on the defense (or even on the attack, for that matter) is buy a rifle company with usually one extra platoon (either rifle or engineer -- I rationalize this as being attached from higher HQ, particularly in the case of the engineers) and usually an extra .50, an MMG or two and possibly extra bazookas. Again, the limiting factor is the support points. I _could_ buy additional rifle platoons, but I _can't_ get any more support weapons and that's where I feel the lack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I often end up doing the same thing. But a 1500 point battle *is* an oddball number. With 1000 points you can get a company plus a few other things. With 2000, it's 2 companies. 1500 points is sort of a "tweener" number; it doesn't exactly fit either well. I think what you're doing is a good (and legitimate) solution.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>With an infantry force (or maybe mechanized? must check) it might be pretty sweet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, definitely on the mechanized. You don't get any armor, tho .

1500 point defense (Attack type QB):

<pre>

Type..Inf..Sup..Veh..Arm..Arty.Fort.Tot

Comb.675..405..600..450..300..225..1500

Mech..900..540..450.....0..300..225..1500

</pre>

But also, give the Glider and Paras a try. Glider squads have ~20% more firepower over Rifle 44 squads at 40m, a bit more than Rif44 at 100m, and a bit less at 250m. You also get *4* Glider platoons per company. Each platoon comes with a .50cal and 60mm mortar. And there's a couple of M1919s attached, 3 60mm mortars, and 5 Zooks. A nice, potent little force especially in close quarters defense AND fits comfortably under the 1500 point cap (both Inf and Support).

Besides, with Airborne, you get to play with 75mm Pack Howitzers! Great anti-Inf guns. Just keep the enemy mortars away.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 08-28-2000).]

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe:

1500 point defense (Attack type QB):

<pre>

Type..Inf..Sup..Veh..Arm..Arty.Fort.Tot

Comb.675..405..600..450..300..225..1500

Mech..900..540..450.....0..300..225..1500

</pre><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

::makes a confused noise::

Ok, maybe I've lost my mind. The numbers you posted didn't look right to me, so I fired up 1.05 and checked myself. I get different values for support than you: 438 for a 1500-pt combined-arms force (vice 405) and 585 for mechanized (vice 540). I got to thinking, maybe they changed in 1.04/05 so I went back to 1.03, same values. But here's the thing: Back when I first made this complaint, I was writing down some values from the purchasing screen. I have the piece of paper here in front of me. I clearly wrote for allied combined-arms allowances:

<pre>

Type..Inf..Sup..Veh..Arm..Arty.Fort.Tot

Comb.900..292..800..600..375..XXX..2000

</pre>

(I didn't write down the fortification allowance). Note that for Inf, Veh and Arm the allowances are in the proportion you'd expect (+33 1/3%) for a 2000 point force vice 1500. But look at the support allowance. 292 points!!

I just verified that now in a single-player QB purchase screen I see an appropriate 585 point support allowance for a 2000-pt combined-arms force (under both 1.03 and 1.05). But I _know_ I was support-point limited before; why else would I have written it down? Could this be a subtle PBEM incompatibility? I'm going to try to dig up the original (purchasing) PBEM files and have a look-see.

::wanders off muttering to self::

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Leland J. Tankersley

[L.Tankersley]

.... I dunno.

I found my original post (8-20-00, search for "support" & my username) and I state I only had 292 points for support in a 2000-pt force. I don't have that email files still lying around, but I did find a file from a game played with 1.03 in which I had a 1000-pt force for a meeting engagement. My allowances were: 450 infantry, 157 support, 400 vehicle, 300 armor and 225 artillery.

I just ran both 1.03 and 1.05 to create a 1000 QB meeting engagement and checked point allowances; both give the same values as above except only 146 are available for support. This is not even enough for a single regular US rifle company. So apparently the support point % varies with battle type and with side (axis/allied). I wonder if it varies with date as well? Is there a random component? Enquiring minds want to know. I think I'll send a quick email to BTS.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>::wanders off muttering to self::<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont go crazy. Allied attacker in 1000 point Combo Assault gets 292 support points.

I do think the numbers change slightly depending on who is attacking.

And I believe that some of the numbers have changed between 1.03 and 1.05, but not all.

- Chris

[L.Tankersley]

In case anyone cares about this besides me, I've done some more research and found that apparently across the board forces entering a meeting engagement only receive 50% of the support points that are received otherwise. Other allowances remain constant or nearly so (artillery allowance shrinks a bit, and fortifications are NA for more or less obvious reasons). I guess I was confusing a couple of PBEM games when I thought the support allowance was low even in an attack/defense. There are still a couple of anomalies I've asked BTS about, though (such as the PBEM where I had a few extra support points).

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Seanachai]

Not only is this of interest to me in and of itself, but it's got Leland talking to himself, which has been amusing to watch in a strange sort of way. Makes me feel less weird shuffling about my apartment going 'Hamsters, hamsters, what's that all about, buggerit! What about those cap totals, shouldn't they be adjusted on X given Y?"

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[guachi]

The ONLY thing I don't like about infantry forces is that they have NO points for vehicles or armor.

But on defense they are great. PILES of support points.

Americans defending with 1000 points I was able to buy 1 Green Rifle Company and 1 Green Heavy Weapons companies. Great for defense. The extra HQs are a MAJOR plus. The best thing about support units is that ANY HQ will do.

You can also bulk up arty support by buying on-board arty like 75mm or 105mm guns. throw in 40mm AA, 57mm AT, 76mm AT guns and you have a diverse array of anti-vehicle guns as well.

I highly recommend playing Infantry on the defense.

Jason

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The ONLY thing I don't like about infantry forces is that they have NO points for vehicles or armor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I think it would be nice if Infantry got atleast a few points for Vehicles, particularly when attacking.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You can also bulk up arty support by buying on-board arty like 75mm or 105mm guns. throw in 40mm AA, 57mm AT, 76mm AT guns and you have a diverse array of anti-vehicle guns as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget the 90mm M2 AA. They turn much faster than 76mm AT, fire at nearly the same rate, and pack more punch. Though they are a higher profile, and more quickly spotted after they open up.

BTW, Jason, I've added turn rates for various AT and Inf guns to my charts (time it takes to turn 180 degrees). The 90mm AA can turn to face the opposite direction in 22 secs. The 76mm AT takes 1:59! By comparison, the 'slow' 150mm sIG gun everyone complained about in VoT only takes 1:12 to turn 180 degrees. The worst is the 88mm PaK43/41 at 4:17.

http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/

Hmmm. Does this trait vary by experience? I forgot to check.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I highly recommend playing Infantry on the defense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I highly recommend *not* playing against an all-Infantry defense. Brutal, simply brutal.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 08-29-2000).]

[Mannheim Tanker]

Did you account for (possible) different experience levels in your calculations, L. Tankersley? I'd check the math myself, but I don't have CM installed at work (I'd get NOTHING done if I did!)

[Daveman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by guachi:

The ONLY thing I don't like about infantry forces is that they have NO points for vehicles or armor.

Jason<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try out Mechanized. I've only played that setup once, but was able to buy plenty of infantry and support, plus a few vehicles (jeeps in my case... I was playing Airborne).

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"You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

Did you account for (possible) different experience levels in your calculations?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Everything was with normal (regular/veteran) troop quality. I would have done if you could go back from the troop purchase screen to scenario creation, but as it is there's no way to cancel out so you have to generate the map, load the 3D graphics, get to the setup phase, abort the scenario, and start all over again. Factor in the times you forget to select "Human chooses forces" or screw up the point amount, and it's quite an undertaking.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hmmm. Does this trait [rotation speed] vary by experience?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To answer my own question: nope.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>it's quite an undertaking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep.

- Chris

[guachi]

Wolfe,

You just saved me the time of doing gun rotation rates.

Thanks.

Jason

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by guachi:

Wolfe,

You just saved me the time of doing gun rotation rates. Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NP. They were pretty easy (quick to do), actually.

BTW, does anybody have any probs with the MS Works files I use (it's old, but the only thing I have)? Is there a free converter to convert to Excel, by any chance? Should I bother?

- Chris

[Gen. Sosaboski]

I just hide and open up at 100m or less if I have a small force. Even if the attacker wins, he gets badly beaten up in terms of casualties.