Hans Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Short Question do the defenders in CM get a reaction bonus for being "wired-in"? I assume the defender having been on the ground for awhile has laid land lines etc? Is that modelled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Bump - Because I would like to know if this could be modeled. I would assume that this is not modeled right now. [This message has been edited by ACTOR (edited 11-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob/1 Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hans: Short Question do the defenders in CM get a reaction bonus for being "wired-in"? I assume the defender having been on the ground for awhile has laid land lines etc? Is that modelled?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be nice. ------------------ Game master of Robs CMC Join or get more info on Rob's CMC today Email me at RobsCMC@hotmail.com Rob -------------------------- For more info on Rob's CMC go to Robs CMC HQHome of Robs CMC Members of my CMC should join my CMC chat bord. Robs CMC Bord BHQS bord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Good point. It would be nice to model landline communications. A simple solution would be to expand the command radius of platoons and companies for the defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Hmm, if this was modeled was modeled in detail, other than just a randon %age figure, I think the propability of cutting the wire with arty and of then having it reconnected ougth to be modeled as well. Any thoughts? ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 A larger command radius wouldn't be a bad approximation. It would also simulate the defender's C3 advantage of having scouted the terrain beforehand, and the leader having a very good idea where all his units are. For example, if a squad reported spotting a sherman coming through "that break in the hedge, 200m in front of our position", he would probably be familiar with the exact location, and where his units where relative to it. On the other hand, an attacking getting reports of "an AT gun, 300m ahead in the thick woods", wouldn't have the same level of awareness of exactly where this AT gun was relative to his forces. Artillery cutting commo wire? Sounds realistic but an incredible pain to model... If you open up that pandora's box, you also have to deal with deciding just where the wire would be laid.. can it be fixed? who would do the fixing? No, I would prefer if this sort of thing is just kept as an abstraction. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted November 27, 2000 Author Share Posted November 27, 2000 I'd say the expanded "command" radius would be the best solution plus a few seconds off the "delay". The phone lines would encourage allow the posting of a Platoon farther away as OP/LP than is now possible Shelling, especially by heavier PD rounds would degrade the commo advantage. (How you do that in software is beyond me! Another would be that the FO would have a direct line into the FA battalion TOC/FDC anc would have a faster response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 Ahh...let me add my two cents worth here, and considering what I've read, it may actually be 3 or 4 cents worth. First of all, wire was being laid all the time, even as units advanced. As soon as a position was taken, wire was being placed, even for a force on the move. Wire was laid at all hours, even close enough to the front that wire-crews were often fired upon and even shelled. My point behind this is that I don't believe it's accurate to state that only the defender is "wired-in." I can check with a simple phone call how long after an advance wire was laid. You see, I've posted before that my wife's grandfather was the wire-cheif for the 10th AD. He wrote a great journal that is full of wire stories, so I can say what I posted above with good credibility. As for arty cutting wire, he also wrote that Germany arty made a mess of the wire, as did tanks. He said that the tanks driving over the wire was always a cause for a break. So, they'd head out to the front at 3 in the morning to fix the breaks. In short, I don't think this warrants much of a bonus if any. If you model wire, then you have to model cutting, and fixing the wire to be accurate. I don't think it's worth it, especially since positions were constantly being wired, never leaving forward positions without wire for long periods of time. ------------------ "THAT DUCK SHALL NOT HAVE DIED IN VAIN!" - Senachai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feuhrerguy Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: In short, I don't think this warrants much of a bonus if any. If you model wire, then you have to model cutting, and fixing the wire to be accurate. I don't think it's worth it, especially since positions were constantly being wired, never leaving forward positions without wire for long periods of time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the time factor is something to consider here. Welp, I guess I shall add my 4 cents worth... The bonus/extended radius for land lines could be added to a unit during setup and lost if the unit moves from its current position, much the way that extra ammo is lost when a unit such as a machine gun that is over stocked is lost now when it moves. Considering the time frame of a CM battle I think it is possible to include land lines for the defender without concern of damaged line repair. We don't have field medics for much the same reason. Their usefulness would be severely limited in a 15 minute to 2 hour confrontation. The limitations put on engineering units also support this. How long does it take to string land line? Would it be possible to do while under fire or during the time frame of a CM type battle? More than likely not. I would guess setup for a defending force is the most likely time and place for such activities. It falls into the digging in category for a game like this. Just my 4 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 IMO modelling land lines for CMBO would be redundant since CM already assumes that every unit has a radio. Obviously this is an abstraction, and Steve and Charles have stated that they're going to model communications and radio contact differently for CM2. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 The only real advantage of field telephone systems is well beyond CM's scope: security. Given a stable front, it was reasonable to presume that land-line communications were not being tapped, while wireless was presumed to be compromised. Other than that, field telephone systems were essentially glorified, immobile radios. WWB ------------------ Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 wwb_99 wrote: Given a stable front, it was reasonable to presume that land-line communications were not being tapped No, it wasn't. There are _many_ examples of units listening to each other's phone lines, especially when the front has been stable for some time. Two examples, both from River Svir front (I can't remember the actual units in question right now, possibly JR 8): One Finnish patrol stumbled on a Soviet phone line that was suspended with using Y-shaped rods. They marked the location on map and returned to own lines. There they spoke to few signals guys who made a Y-shaped rod of their own, boring a hole through it. They then sneaked to the phone line, replaced one of the rods by their own, and drove a tap through the rod. They the dug first 20 or so meters of their own wire in ground and took the wire home. The tap survived at least two Soviet searches and was finally compromised when Finns directed artillery fire by it once too often. In the other case one Finnish patrol noticed that Soviets had put a wire tap on a barbed wire fence. They were very stumped on the find but told about it to some signals men. They then went to look it and connected their own tap to the barbed wire. To their surprise, they heard a Finnish phone conversation from it. They started to look for the cause and noticed that the phone line that run about 10 meters behind the wire was not insulated and the conversation was induced to the barbed wire. - Tommi [This message has been edited by tss (edited 11-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 Hans, Good question. At the moment radios are assumed to be in use at this level. So no, there is no direct communications benefit as the defender. And, at least for CM1, this is mostly realisitc. However, TRPs, foxholes, defensive fortifications, etc. are all defensive advantages relating to time. Combat Mission 2 - Eastern Front is a different story... Radios, especially handheld ones, were very rare on the Eastern Front for most of the conflict. Therefore, we do in fact need to model wire communications equipment. And yes, this does mean we have to model the chance of wires being cut I have no details to give you at the moment, but when the revamped Command and Control model takes shape on our end, you can be sure it will be presented here for you guys to comment on. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 I should have been more clear in my statement. What I really meant was a solid front, with very little infiltration (i.e., the Western front). The nature of the terrain in Finland (and most of Russia for that matter) made the front very permeable. Also note that the Soviets had problems producing insulated telephone wire, which you note is a disadvantage in wet ground. WWB ------------------ Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 I think the defender has some kind of benefit in C2, as he could check the Command radius to all his positions, thing that the Attacker player could only estimate... Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Therefore, we do in fact need to model wire communications equipment. And yes, this does mean we have to model the chance of wires being cut <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Feuhrerguy: Considering the time frame of a CM battle I think it is possible to include land lines for the defender without concern of damaged line repair...How long does it take to string land line? Would it be possible to do while under fire or during the time frame of a CM type battle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It seems from my reading that wiring was done each and every night, and right along the front. Enemy arty often caused wire-breaks multiple times per night. Sometimes these were quick fixes, and sometimes lenthy ones. It was not at all uncommon for wirecrews to spend time in destroyed enemy pillboxes and bunkers that had been turned into front-line CPs, and wire crews often had to run wire through hostile areas as well, if that hostile area was between two secured areas that needed commo. So I think that this activity certainly would be taking place during some CM scaled actions, specifically defending, but also in what CM depicts as a Meeting Engagement. In short, if you're going to model the benefits of wire, I think you have to model the problems when it breaks as well, as BTS has stated that they will do in CM2. ------------------ "THAT DUCK SHALL NOT HAVE DIED IN VAIN!" - Senachai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted November 28, 2000 Author Share Posted November 28, 2000 Sounds good there BTS. One note the Battalion would have a switchboard - destruction of which would degrade the wire advantage Note: WWII wire was usually laided in two methods A hot loop with every one tied into a single loop of wire-everyone can listen but only one can talk A more sophiscated step with wires running back to a switchboard, run by the Battalion/Company with the battalion having lines to higher eschelons. So you'd have a platoon on a hot loop with the Plt leader with a direct line to the Co CP and the CP with a direct line to the BN plus a back up hotloop between the Plt leaders and Co, etc The wire also tied them in with flanking units. Yes units did move wire up with them, sometimes team infilitrated ahead to set up wire "heads" that assaulting forces could link into. One doesn't want to get this wire aspect too complicated but I believe an advantage in command range, delay time etc should be expected --and the advantage should decline under shelling, destruction of HQ units and movement of tracked vehicles. My old wire chief use to say, "Damn, as soon as they turn an engine over (on a tracked vehicle) these *&^%&^%$ lines break!" Last wire note, the M60 tank series had a telephone on the back for infantry co-operation and to tie it into the defensive hotloop - did the allied WWII tanks or Germans have the same??? Cannot wait for Cm21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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