Panther turret speed revisited

[Lee]

I agree, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who to do this.

I was just offering some sort of compromise for now. I think a good case

could be made that even regular crews would have some training so they

know it's important to do this in a combat siuation. I suppose one

could argue that in the heat of battle conscripts or green troops might

forget. But those guys are already penalized quite a bit for their

lesser skills.

If it can be shown that it was standard operating procedure for all

crews to crank the rpm's any time a dangerous target was spotted to get

the gun on it as fast as possible, then it should be that way.

But Steve has mentioned modeling several other negative aspects

to these tanks, to balance the accurate turret speed, and that

would likely take even *longer* to implement. So, I thought we could

make a temporary deal to hold us over until it can be modeled more

thoroughly.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It would be trivial to change the rotation speed (if appropriate) to "medium" (still slower than a Sherman).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but only if we felt it was the right path to go down. We don't at the moment think so.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If it is the case that achieving enough engine RPMs to rotate the turret at its optimal speed is possible for vet or crack crews, it is the case that it is possible for all crews. It is a *very* simple procedure. You just stomp on the gas pedal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a bit more complicated than that. It required communication between crew members and near instant compliance. In other words, the driver doesn't know when the TC needs more gas the instant the TC thinks of it. Because we are only talking about the difference of a few seconds, it is not unreasonable to reward more experienced crews with better rotation speeds. Perhaps it should apply to Regular crews as well, but we still think it should not be available for Conscripts and Green crews. They have enough on their minds just keeping the vehicle moving

Steve

[Dittohead]

I think even green american troops get a small benefit from the gyros. So why wouldn't the same logic apply to turret speed rotation.

The logic behind the gyro's inclusion are not much different then the reasons to include faster rotation speed of the panther turret. IMHO

Tony

[This message has been edited by Dittohead (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Good point. Unfortunately, we are on one of those slippery slopes. The German optics were, at least from the consensus of the super grogs here on this BBS, quite complicated. Yet we do not give a Green Panther gunner a lower accuracy rating than a Green Sherman gunner. A Green driver would also most likely have slower accelleration compared to a Veteran (they gave awards for good driving for a reason!).

So I think we need to think about this a bit more

Steve

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Good point. Unfortunately, we are on one of those slippery slopes. The German optics were, at least from the consensus of the super grogs here on this BBS, quite complicated. Yet we do not give a Green Panther gunner a lower accuracy rating than a Green Sherman gunner. A Green driver would also most likely have slower accelleration compared to a Veteran (they gave awards for good driving for a reason!).

So I think we need to think about this a bit more

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is, we are talking about the least significant part of the turret rotation speed issue.

If the decision is between the status quo (slow) and medium, then whether it takes the driver an extra second or two is irrelevant to the final outcome.

If a elite driver has an almost instantaneous reaction to the order to move the turret, and a green driver takes a second, maybe two on the outside, to figure out what he is supposed to do, then the different between he total traverse time in those two cases is still just that second or two. The vast bulk of the traverse time is still taken up by the actual physical time it takes to move the turret from point A to point B, whether we use the current model or the proposed model.

In the end, the effective difference between the crew qualities is vastly overshadowed by the other, more significant variables. The only time those few seconds are going to end being meaningful is if the turret only needs to traverse a few degrees anyway, and in that case, the additional power from the engine is not nearly as important anyway.

I can certainly see a potential difference in turret rotation, as Pvt. Hanz is trying to remember exactly what he was supposed to do when the gunner is yelling at him to give him turret power while the commander is yelling about getting the hull rotated to face that AT gun that just took a shot at them, but I cannot see how it would be the difference between a slow turret rotation speed and a medium turret rotation speed. How much fidelity does the model allow in these speeds anyway?

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In the end, the effective difference between the crew qualities is vastly overshadowed by the other, more significant variables.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are underestimating how many things are going on inside a tank during combat, and the stress that comes with it. I can easily see a Green TC forgetting to issue the order for more RPMs, or at least taking a few seconds to remember to do so. Then IF the driver even hears him the first time, taking some time to remember which peddle is the clutch and which is the gas Seriously, I can see the driver fumbling. So the reaction time could range from severe to minimal.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The only time those few seconds are going to end being meaningful is if the turret only needs to traverse a few degrees anyway, and in that case, the additional power from the engine is not nearly as important anyway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is one reason why this issue is not all that important if the Panther is used correctly. The worst conditions for turret speed traversing is on the move combat at relatively close ranges where the direction of travel is not towards the target. This is not how the Panther was supposed to be employed. In theory, the turret should never need to rotate more than a modest number of degrees (say 20-40), which means the turret rotation speed would most likely be done at its slowest speed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How much fidelity does the model allow in these speeds anyway?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much. In theory RPM based turret rotation mechanisms should have different speeds based on how many degrees the turret is being rotated. As stated above, if the TC only needs to move the turret 20 degrees he is not going to bother the driver to kick up the RPMs. By the time the engine got up to speed the turret would already be on target. But if the TC needed to rotate the thing 90 degrees, he certainly would want more RPMs. Then, depending on crew reaction time, the speed of that rotation would be somewhat less than ideal, but greater than average.

Steve

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think you are underestimating how many things are going on inside a tank during combat, and the stress that comes with it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The wacky **** that can occur inside a tank turret during the adrenaline generated from merely a live fire exercise can be amazing. I can't imagine the errors that might occur when you mix in live fire being directed your way.

[Jeff Heidman]

Steve, you ignorant sl...

Ooops, never mind.

Actually, I think you have me convinced. I was not considering the entire issue. I was considering that regardless of how green he might be, the driver should still be able to stomp on the gas in a matter of a second at the most.

But there is (as you stated) much more to it than that. Before the driver can get on the gas, the gunner (or TC) has to tell him to get on the gas. Before that can happen, the TC has to tell the gunner to move the turret, and I could easily see any (or all) of the following happen in a green crew:

1. TC forgets to tell gunner proper lay of the gun.

2. Gunner starts turning gun without telling driver he needs power.

3. TC does not inform the driver, or gives the driver conflicting/confusing orders ("Halt! Get on the gas!"

4. Driver forgets how to stomp on the gas because he is scared/confused/etc.

5. If moving, driver stalls vehicle.

6. Etc., etc.

In the real world (of which I have seen just enough of to know better) even the simplest, most trivial tasks become problematic when under great pressure. Indeed, the difference between green and regular is probably nothing more than the ability to perform the trivial tasks under combat, much less the hard tasks.

This reminds me of a little anecdote. I had a friend whos father spent 20+ years as a beat cop in Harlem. We were out shooting one day, and we got on the subject of how different it is when you are shooting a gun at a real person who is shooting back. He would never admit to details about when he used his weapon in earnest, but he had some interesing advice about being in that situation. He said (I paraphrase)

"If you ever find yourself with a pistol in your hand trying to kill someone while they are trying to kill you, just remember one thing. It is all about sight picture. Take your time. Line up your sight picture, take a breath, get pointed at center mass, and squeeze off your shot. The other guy will likely have fired 3 times by now, but the last thing he will be hitting is you. He will be spraying bullets everywhere because he is panicking, but your first round will take him down."

He never said as much, but his story sounded a lot like a personal anecdote. His son knew the specifc story, but refused to share it. What I do know is that the guy was an outstanding shot on a range at least.

Jeff Heidman

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Steve, you ignorant sl...

Ooops, never mind.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not everyone might "get" the reference to the late 70's Saturday Night Live line...

"Jane, You Ignorant Slut!"

it was meant in Good humour by Jeff

at Least I think it was.

Just mentioning it here as this is an international forum and not everyone may know about Dan Akeroid and Jane Curtan from the "hey day" of their saturday night live days.

no offense

-tom w

[Lee]

Well, glad to see others agree my proposal has merit.

I think the speed bonus based on crew skill is the way to go here.

Might not be perfect, but for now it's pretty good. And easier to code than

a full blown modeling of every positive and negative aspect to these

particular tanks.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Just mentioning it here as this is an international forum and not everyone may know about Dan Akeroid and Jane Curtan from the "hey day" of their saturday night live days.

no offense

-tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, the memories. Back then, SNL was razor humor compared to most else that was out there at the time. And Dan always closed off his "counter-point" argument to Jane on the "Weekend Update" skit by saying "Who'd you sleep with to get this job in the first place?"

(drinks a toast to "Rosanne Rosannadana" Gilda...RIP......)

[This message has been edited by Spook (edited 12-01-2000).]