Yet....another stupid question

[Guest teutonic]

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Sort of Long post

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Well this is the first paragraph from the 3rd chapter in "Hitler's Teutonic Knights-SS Panzers in action" by Bruce Quarrie:

"When the often thin and hotly debated line between those mew who were actively involved with the running of the Nazi concentration camps, and those who were purely front-line soldiers wearing SS rather than Army insignia, comes up for discussion, the greyest area is always the SS Totenkopf division. To a deree, apologists for the Waffen-SS have done to this unit what the rest of the world did to the SS as a whole: branded it as responsible for all the worst attrocities. Similarly, thos with anti-SS views tend to say, 'well, these chaps were concentration camp guards, but they were held up as an elite Waffen-SS fighting unit, so where does that leave the Leibstandarte, Das Reich and others?

The next paragraph in the book goes into detail about how the unit was created:

"The Totenkopf Division was originally created from the five pre-war Standarten responsible for guarding the concentration camps, with a leavening of properly trained soldiers form the SS-VT."

If you wish more info let me know and i can email you with it.

Teutonic

Still undefeated in the Demo!!(Of course I haven't done pbem yet )

[This message has been edited by teutonic (edited 01-05-2000).]

[John Hough]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Basically if your squd is A3 then ONLY platoon leader A0 and the company commander platoon A is under can order him around...

Well, Bn COs can order them around too.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume this has changed since the demo? I noticed in CE that all of the german company commanders can command any squad...

-John

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The fact was brought up that the Imperial Guard drew too many good soldiers away from their formations and concentrated them in one force. Sure, this created a virtually unbeatable entity, but, it severely weakened the rest of the army. Do you think that this is what happened to the German army?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One big difference between the Waffen-SS and the Garde Imperiale. The SS were always where ever the fighting was heaviest... the Garde Imperiale was always held in reserve.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can't think of a single SS officer famous for being a good general<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul Hauser... but he seems to be the exception

[Bastables]

But Paul Hasser was a retired Reichwehr General who served as a Staff officer on both fronts during WWI. Therefore the SS was not a fount of superb officers.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Therefore the SS was not a fount of superb officers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly not. The Generals of the Wehrmacht were much better. The SS did produce some outstanding junior officers, but their senior officers were generally mediocre to poor

[PanzerLeader]

Thanks for all the replies.

I still can't figure out how that man ended in the Wiking SS Division with a TotenKopf SS badge on his uniform!? He couldn't be in two divisions at the same time...Oh well, I'll ask him.

Actually I can't think of any senior SS officer except Sepp Dietrich...In Kursk he was known to attack a village during the day, and then halt for the night outside the village so that Russian artillery and airplanes bombed it a few hours for nothing.

[PanzerLeader]

Db post

[This message has been edited by PanzerLeader (edited 01-06-2000).]

[PanzerLeader]

OOps, triple post...Sorry, I've never had this problem before.

[This message has been edited by PanzerLeader (edited 01-06-2000).]

[Fionn]

Wow, a triple post... That's got to be some kind of record Panzerleader

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK, I'll clear up a few things here...

The 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" was indeed created from concentration camp units. Not all actually served in the camps, but that was their original designation as a whole. As the war progressed the ties with the camps became less and less strong, with the bulk of the recruits going directly from boot camp to the 3rd SS (i.e. no camp duty).

However, there was a constant movement of men from the fighting formations to the camps and back again. Usually as a reward/punishment and/or a result of wounding/healing.

The Totenkopfverbände units were used for other SS divisions as well, including the 6th SS Gebirgsjäger division. A number of smaller combat units were made up from concentration camp guards. There were also transfers between SS units too, so someone in the 5th SS Wiking Panzer division *might* have served in a concentration camp at some time.

But keep in mind there were few, percentage wise, that served in both the camps and the frontline. The bulk were brought into the front line units through normal means, not through the camps. Plus, as the war went on a larger and larger percentage of camp guards were foreign (especially Ukranians).

As for good SS Generals, there were many. But as there were only a few SS Korps, and one SS Armee, not too many of the senior officers in the war were SS. Think of this like the Marine Corps in the US. Lots of great Marine officers, but few go up beyond a certain level. Also, most SS senior officers were former WWI or Reichswehr officers, so men like Hauser (SS since 1936 I think) are SS through and through. In fact, Hauser and a few others escentially BUILT the Waffen SS

There are mixed reviews of Dietrich, but I personally think of him like I do Patton (though a notch lower). Great leader of men, tough as nails, and with a quick grasp of tactical situations. But just like Patton and Rommel, it was their chief's of staff that actually organized everything.

The Totenkopf bagde was on the headgear of all uniformed SS members, Waffen, Algemeine, Sicherheitsdienst (SD), etc. So a member of Wiking would have certainly had this on his headgear, but not his colar tabs (though all WH tankers did).

Company HQs can command any unit. Squads can not be commanded by another platoon's HQ.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-06-2000).]

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I still can't figure out how that man ended in the Wiking SS Division with a TotenKopf SS badge on his uniform!? He couldn't be in two divisions at the same time...Oh well, I'll ask him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Totenkopf emblem is on all SS uniforms... its an SS thing. The Totenkopf Division marked their vehicles with the Totenkopf emblem.

[Guest R Cunningham]

I really wanted to post this earlier in the thread before it got close to the size limit. But the phone company decided I needed to stay of the net for a few days... so here's what I wrote to post earlier:

First I’d like to congratulate everyone for keeping this thread on topic and calm. There is so much potential for this to go awry.

A few comments.

I think the characterization of the Waffen SS as a political entity is wrong. What the Waffen SS might have become later within Nazi Germany if they had won the war is irrelevant. Himmler had great plans but the plans he expressed were not consistent. The sources I have read indicate that the military leadership of the Waffen SS universally loathed Himmler and his vision of a Knights‘ Order. There is one incident that springs to mind in the spring of 1943 when Himmler visited Paul Hausser’s SS Panzer Corps around Karkhov. Himmler spoke of „terror“ that led to success and Hausser corrected him, regarding this as an insult to the leaders and men who had fought so hard and so well and at such cost.

I also think it is wrong to speak of the Waffen SS as an organization separate from the Wehrmacht. It was for all practical purposes a fourth branch next to the Army, Navy and Luftwaffe. The Waffen-SS would have been a separate organization in peacetime, but the Waffen SS never existed in peacetime. Certainly the Waffen SS had ist origins in the party but when the entire organization takes orders from the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht I think filing it as a party outfit is the wrong way to go. On the other hand are such statements from the German War Minister in 1935,(before there was a Waffen-SS but there was the SS Verfügungstruppe – later Das Reich - , the immediate precursor to the Waffen SS) annoucing the end of the Versailles treaty with „Das Deutsche Heer umfaßt 36 Divisionen, darunter 1 Division SS Verfügungstruppe.“ Translated it is „The German Army consists of 36 divisions, one of them a SS division.“ This is obviously not what happened, but it illustrative of the early concepts of what was to become of these SS formations.

I think the influence of ideology in the battlefield success is vastly overrated. Most studies of men in battle point to the „primary group“ as the base for morale. There have been other elites like the british Para, the US Airborne and the Fallschirmjäger. None of these other troops are assumed to have been indoctrinated with an ideology that spurred them on to superior battlefield results. They are elites because they were formed as elites. In my readings one theme that is mentioned over and over about the Waffen SS was the more relaxed relations between officers and men, and the much more frequent promotion of enlisted soldiers to the officer ranks. To me this seems to be very much like the modern Israeli forces. I think the elite character of the Waffen SS was largely the result of the efforts of Paul Hausser the retired Reichsheer general who was made inspector general of the fledgling SS-VT. He built the SS-VT into a first class fighting unit when the Waffen SS did not get the good equipment. He was able to do this because the new SS-VT did not have any traditions to uphold or established interest groups like the cavalry or artillery that needed to be dealt with. Felix Steiner, former Waffen-SS general officer, talks about two camps in the interwar years that were vying for influence in the creation of the resurgent Reichswehr/wehrmacht. One school was the creation of the mass army which the Heer was and the other school comprised mainly of the veterans of the trenches that wanted to see the elite character of the late-war Stoßtrupps applied to a large, professional army but not one based on the universal conscription model that produced the mass armies of WW I. For Steiner, the Waffen-SS represented that elite Stoßtrupp army.

Then the presence of large numbers of foreigners in the ranks of the Waffen SS make the effectiveness of political indoctrination suspect. The warped racial formulations of the Reichsführer SS were a part of the training program in the Junkerschulen but the very foundations of this indoctrination were undermined as the various foreign groups joined the Waffen SS and many of them were distinctly non-Aryan. I think it quite stretch to conclude that ideology was a factor in the non-German formations like the two Latvian divisions and the Estonian division which were the most effective of the non-germanic units. Furthermore, any of these racial theories inculcated in the classroom would quickly evaporate on the battlefield as it would quickly become apparent to any grenadier that the „Subhumans“ were pressing in on the Reich with masses of men and materiel.

The German training slogan was sweat saves blood, but they quickly found that the Americans had a better one: machines save men. In round numbers about 900,000 men served in the Waffen SS: 400,000 Germans, 300, 000 ethnic Germans and 200,000 non-Germans.

Comparisons to the NKVD are also misleading because of the different functions. NKVD units did not fight alongside the rest of the Red Army. They were there to ensure the Red Army fought. Waffen-SS units did not form a backstop to make the regular army units fight. The regualr army units were alwas glad to have an „iron hard“ SS unit on their flanks.

As has already been addressed above, the oath was the same for the Waffen SS as it was for the other services. I don’t think this oath ever had much impact on the rank and file, but it was very important in supressing the resistance amongst the senior officers whose rigid sense of honor would not allow them to stop Hitler.

[Berlichtingen]

R Cunningham,

Good post

[Das Boot]

R Cunningham,

Good point, but I think you're wrong about Waffen SS not beeing a political entity. The admission of non-Germans and especially Slavs was a necessity of war, and you're right that it makes the idea of the political soldier suspect. But the nucleus of the Waffen SS, the original four divisions, can be thought of as a political entity.

Four divisions out of 38 isn't much, I know, but they were the only ones that existed prior to Barbarossa and the only ones, that can be labelled true Waffen SS.

Another aspect is that Waffen SS had it's own legal system, the "SS Sondergerichtbarkeit". The German Army accused one of it's own soldiers and a Waffen-SS soldier of shooting 50 jewish prisoners and the prosecuter demanded the death penalty. However, the court ruled that the Waffen SS-soldier was especially sensitive to the presence of jews and only sentenced hin to a short time in jail. But to avoid these cases in the future, the special legal system was introduced.

As for the "Untermenschen" pressing in on the Reich, doesn't mean that the ideology failed. For some it did, but for many others, it was the sheer number of Slavs, that was pushing the Germans back, not skill. So the idea of Ayrans as the master Race didn't necessarily conflict with Germany losing the War.

Still, ideology wasn't iron clad, and many soldiers lived with the locals and grew to like them, despite the fact, that they had been tought to think of them as sub-humans, so in that respect, you have a good point.

Finally, I agree with you that the importance of ideology on the battlefield is often overrated. On the other hand the importance of ideology in everyday life shouldn't be. The Waffen SS-soldiers were supposed to be the best of the best and behave as true super-humans. That meant that theft from your comrades was a serious offence, as it showed a flaw in your caracter, and it was punishable by death, as was homosexuality. I 1944 a NCO was sentenced to death for having masturbated with another man. Despite the fact, that he had received the Iron Cross and a lack of qualified soldiers, the sentence was carried out to keep the honour of the unit intact, so the political ascpet was a significant factor - albeit not in all units.

[Guest R Cunningham]

Das Boot,

The distinction I was trying to make is the nature of the Waffen SS as a fighting force that fought exclusively on the battlefield as opposed to the Allgemeine SS and SD. I wouldn't call a soldier drafted into the W-SS in 1944 any more politically motivated than someone who wnet into the Heer.

The SS, particularly Leibstandardarte, was created as a political entity but once the shooting started the W-SS was just another combat organization. Himmler, I think hated what the W-SS became because the harsh reality on the front belied all of his claptrap and he made very few visits to units. I think soldiers of all nations understood that they usually had more in common with their counterparts across the battlefield than they did with their own national leaders. Himmler spoke often to Army leaders after he was named the commander of the Ersatzheer in 44. Throughout the period 1935-45 he never assembled the leadership of the W-SS because, so Steiner, he was afraid of their criticism.

The masturbation incident is very strange. That one deserves its own thread...

I failed to coment on some of the other points brought up above.

The Totenkopf is a symbol with a long tradition in cavalry units. The panzertruppen used it as a collar device while the SS used it as a cap emblem. This is another symbol that the Germans will likely never use again becuase it is now tainted by association with the SS. Here's a picture of Generalfeldmarschall von Mackensen wearing the Totenkopf on his husar headgear:

The other point raised was the lack of really good W-SS generals. It is true that none of the 69 W-SS generals ever achieved the acclaim of their Heer counterparts. Other than they may have been just plain inferior there may be some other reasons. Almost without exception the famous "good" generals were very senior and commanded at levels above Corps. Manstein, Model, Rommel, Heinrici, von Manteufel. Since the SS was invariably attached or subordinated to army units the W-SS generals rarely had the opportunity to command such large formations. Off hand I can't think of any W-SS officer who had an Army-level command other than Hausser (7th Armee) and Dietrich (6th panzer Armee). It is also possible that historians have avoided the W-SS generals purposefully. Anyway, of the 69, 52 had served in the Reichswehr, the old army, the Landespolizei or the royal and imperial army of Austria as professional officers. 7 came from the enlisted ranks, one came from Romania and the other 9 rose from the SS-VT.

[Berlichtingen]

On the subject of Waffen-SS commanders. I just bought "Waffen-SS Commanders" by Mark Yerger. It covers Augsberger to Kreutz (leads me to believe this is volumn one ). After I've had a chance to read it, I'll post what I find out.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Totenkopf is a symbol with a long tradition in cavalry units<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

During the reign of Friedrich der Grosse, there were two hussar units (Toten Husaren and ganze tot Husaren). Both wore black uniforms with the death symbol on the headgear (death's head for the Toten Husaren and a full skeleton gor the ganze tot). During the Napoleonic wars, the Toten Husaren were basically destroied in 1806, but were reformed as the Lieb Husaren (again black uniforms with the death's head). this became the traditional uniform of the Guard Hussars from that point on. It seems natural that the Panzer troops and the Waffen-SS would take the same idea for their uniforms... being the "Guard" troops of Germany.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Good posts!

Some more "death's head" trivia. I can't remember which unit it was, but one of the UK "Huassar" Regiments used a death's head symbol in WWII. There was also a large Freikorps formation (forget which) that employed a death's head symbol. Probably the same one that used a Lugar holster my dad picked up, as there was a similar emblem fastened to it.

Steve

[Guest R Cunningham]

Berlichtingen,

I am not sure if Mr. Yergers's bok will be very helpful. I'm sure it will have lots of neat info on these commanders but he can't exactly elevate them to "greatness" all on his own. Well, I guess he could tell us which ones were considered good by their peers.

BTW does your nick have something to do with Götz von Berlichingen the knight with the iron hand? I've got a Lt.Col on the DISCOM staff who worships him.

[This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 01-09-2000).]

[Berlichtingen]

R Cunningham,

Bingo! Götz of the Iron Hand. I see you noticed that I misspelled the name (can't figure out how to fix it ). Has your Lt.Col. read the play by Goethe? Its not bad.

Yerger's book (what I've read so far) does give a bit of info on their combat record, and its full of those wonderful German OB diagrams

[This message has been edited by Berlichtingen (edited 01-09-2000).]

[Guest R Cunningham]

Götz,

I had to read the play and watch the film in college. "Leck mich am Arsch!" LTC Clidas is our DISCOM XO and has a nice old ink print of Götz on his office wall.

You can't fix the name in the profile thing, but you could always re-register as a new guy. Of course you'd lose the , um, coveted "member" status....

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...and watch the film in college.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Film? Did you say film? What film?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You can't fix the name in the profile thing, but you could always re-register as a new guy. Of course you'd lose the , um, coveted "member" status....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually thought of, and tried, that. I can do it so long as I don't use my e-mail address.

[Guest R Cunningham]

I don't remember when it was made or who made it. I just know that our instructor was hyping Götz up to be a superman and saying things like he was the German version of Robin Hood and that this film was an action adventure. It was in color but it had the low-budget europroduction feel where the sound ain't right. It had some hokey mounted fights and his castle was tiny. It was OK I guess, but by Hollywood standards it was really weak.

Re: name change. You could ask BTS to fix your profile. I would think that they would be able to do that. Otherwise you're stuck unless you get a new email address or a new alias for the old one.

(edit) OK, I did a quick search and this is what I found (I am assuming you can read the German):

GÖTZ VON BERLICHINGEN MIT DER EISERNEN HAND

Produktionsjahr: 1978

Buch: Wolfgang Liebeneiner

Regie der Actionszenen: Harald Reindl

Kamera: Ernst W. Kalinke

Darsteller: Raimund Harmstorf, Herbert Fux, Adrian Hoven, Karl Lieffen, Michèle Mercier, Ernst Stankovski, Klaus-Jürgen Wussow, Silvia Reize u. a.

Technische Daten: 103 Min., 35 mm, Farbe

Produktion: Regina Film, Victoria Film, BR

Uraufführung: 19. 1. 1979

Erstsendung: 23. 12. 1981, BR

Frei nach dem Stück von Goethe wird die tragische Geschichte dieses rauhbeinigen Gesellen erzählt, dessen Leben ein einziges dramatisches Abenteuer war. Vor der historischen Kulisse der Bauernkriege gehören Berlichingens Fehde mit dem Bischof von Bamberg, die Auseinandersetzungen mit seinem ehemaligen Freund und späteren Todfeind Adalbert von Weislingen sowie sein Kampf gegen die kaiserlichen Landsknechthaufen ebenso zum deftig-prallen Geschehen wie die Intrigen der verführerischen Adelheid von Walldorf und Franz von Sickingens Liebe zu Götzens Schwester Maria. (end edit)

[This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 01-09-2000).]

[Berlichtingen]

R Cunningham,

I am in your debit. Thank you for the info on the movie... now all I have to do is find it