TeAcH Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 Man how I hate doing this but I gotta, and man am I gonna kick the proverbial dead horse right in his ass. Here goes nothing. Something is terribly terribly wrong with the flamethrowers and, I stress something. Let me finish. I had an unscathed flamethrower squad unleash all 6 bursts (6 plus separate shots) of liquid hell into an imobilized HMG MG42 squad with 1 man left at a distance of 28m and NOTHING happened! Not one casualty. Not even a rout. Not even a freaking panic attack. The MG42 turned and turned and was looking for and firing at targets between my shots. Lt. Bull, my adversary in this PBEM can back me up. It was a joke. Hey, Im no expert on WW2 arms and Im not a historian of any kind, but this is really hard to accept. I posted another fine example of a bogus flamethrower attack a couple of weeks ago with pictures (search back youll see) and that one, where a German unit walked through a wall of liquid fire unscathed, was hard to swallow. This example is impossible. Please, no offense, but take another look at this weapon BTS please. Im sure there are folks out there who have had some success with this weapon and will try to say that all is well, but I ask them to look at this example and ponder it. I don't have the answer but it needs checking. TeAcH PS, Lt Bull...where are you buddy on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krm Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 Although I can't say I've seen this happen - I have witnessed exactly the opposite. I had a flame thrower team toast all but 2 of a German squad in 3 bursts (the other two surrendered) I've also had the AI do some serious damage to me with a FT unit. It may just be bad luck on your part, but I guess only BTS can clear this up for you. ------------------ krm - King of useless posts;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 The HMG unit wasn't in a foxhole was he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted May 30, 2000 Author Share Posted May 30, 2000 He was in a foxhole. Shoulda been a nice place for that heat to build up and cook his butt, not shelter if you ask me. That heat and fire would have rolled off the side of the foxhole and funneled right back at him. TeAcH [This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 05-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 Sorry Teach. I had my men wear asbestos suits! Yep. I must say I was darn surprised when I still saw the lone Regular HMG crew (out of CnC) suffer no casualties and no apparent change of state after being repeatedly doused with flames for an entire turn. A detail which may be of significance was that the HMG unit was in a foxhole on a hill and the flamethrower unit was further down the hill and to one side. Regardless, I don't think that HMG shouldve survived at all. Lt. Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 I would agree that this seems out of line. An audience watching one of those things being demonstrated some 30 or so meters away can feel the heat from them and get a little nervous without even being even near the recieving end. No shelter with openings to the effects could be adequate. It was sometimes enough just to see a burst of flame from one directed elsewhere to inspire surrender in Germans as the flamethrower team approached. If the machine gun was in use, why was it not applied to that most disasterous threat, the flamethrower? And being in use indicates the crew was preminantly exposed, so that foxhole or not, it was time to cut bait or run. The flamethrower did not have to cook its quarry. It could remove sufficient oxygen from the vacinity to put its victums out. Air heated to cooking temperatures could not exactly be healthy to breathe either. One factor remains in question; what is the range of the thing? The fuel unleavened with napalm leaves it effective at rather short ranges. Napalm gives it the necessary cohesion to form a rod of fire with the necessary range to reach out and touch someone. Without it ranges are measured in a short set of tens of feet, maybe 25 or 30 at the most. If napalm double that, then at even 60 feet we are in the neighborhood of less than 20 meters. Someone with more exact figures could brighten this part of the question. In training we fired it without napalm. It was still a hell of a beast. A dragon whose targets were likely to have second thoughts even when the first squirt was a little short, leaving them to seriously consider the consequences of remaining for a closer dose. Speaking of courageous foolhardiness, I am reminded of the story of the Japanese soldier armed with a fire extinguisher, who charged a flamethrower team. [This message has been edited by Bobbaro (edited 05-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 People need to be very carefull when trying to draw conclusions from a single instance of anything. First of all, keep in mind that the graphics do NOT indicate near misses, high shots, low shots, etc. So everything looks like a hit, but only the target's casualty indicator tells you if it really is. Secondly, 30m is on the outside of the weapon's effective range. 15m is more or less optimal. Thidly, the target was also in a foxhole, which does offer protection to some degree especially at long range (would depend if the FT was armed with napalm or diesel). Short of it is... you missed. It happens in war. It happens OFTEN in fact, especially when trying to get a single guy. If this happened at 10m or 15m I would be more concerned. As it is, for this and other reasons, we don't think there is a problem. As for why the guy did not Panic, it is probably because he was Fanatic. This is a hidden value that neither player is made directly aware of. You generally only notice this when the unit survives something like this. As others can tell you, surviving and remaining calm after a FT attack is not the normal behavior in CM. If it were, then there would be a problem. I have seen flame throwers using both napalm and diesel fuel. It is not a point and shoot weapon when it comes to accuracy. Having used a FT myself (diesel) you can't see the target area once you pull the trigger. Needless to say if you are not right on top of the target you stand a chance of missing something like a single man in a foxhole. Then there is wind and obstructions to keep in mind. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 I used the FT once at extreme range, and the enemy buggered out. They were then cut down by other squads on the flanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 3 squirts in deep forest (I think it was about 18m) and I had a 2 squads and an HQ cooked, panicked, and routed. A flanking squad got the FT, but too late. This was B Platoon in VoT, which I believe has two regulars and one green squad. Of course shooting uphill would decrease the range of the FT. Also, a foxhole worthy of the name will have a nice berm in front of it. I doubt these things are directly modeled (the best argument being that the fire graphics are representational) but they might help you to rationalize the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 As a side note, how close does a unit carrying a demo charge (e.g., engineers) have to get to toss the bugger? And what is the "nominal" blast radius for demo charge damage effect? (I haven't used these yet in VoT.) Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyland Posted May 30, 2000 Share Posted May 30, 2000 Spook, Right next to the target. Literally. I played the Americans vs. the AI Axis in VOt once, and the computer had placed a wooden bunker in town, adjacent to the middle large building. In my fanatical charge, I was able to get an Engineer squad into the building one over from the building in question, and they did not use their charge. It was only when I ran them into the building actually adjacent to the bunker did they torque it (and well, too I might add). Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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