Commissar Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 Considering how detailed CM is at modeling virtually everything, I was wondering if it is possible to not only brew up an enemy tank but also create that very satisfying Jack-in-the-box effect of the turret just completely flying off the tank from an overwhelmingly effective hit. Does CM model this as well or not? Not a big deal, but it would be nice for a later patch or in CM2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 Sounds cool but not modeled at present. Funny thing is I would be willing to bet that this is on 'THE LIST' to be looked at in the future with CM2 and beyond...Kinda Hollywood though...But still cool. By the way, I am not saying it never happened (in fact I have read accounts of it happening!) but it and other some other cool stuff that is just a little out of the scope of the gameplay and probably not a priority to make it in... Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 MadNess, That Panther POTD, labeled as NakedDead, sure looks like its turret is askew. Is this just a funny angle, or is this one of the added bonus features? ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 Anytime a tank is killed you get that askew affect with the turrets and the barrel will also droop some! Madmatt... ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 Your MadNess, Thanks for the quick response - I'll have to take some closer looks at my movie files from now on. I always saw the barrel droop before but never noticed the turret actually looking like it is not quite sitting correctly on the turret ring though ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargetDrone Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 well.. it happens everytime? what about a lower hull penetration? i guess the turrent wont be deplaced by that? would it? ------------------ -- TargetDrone who doesn't want to draw attention... especially from guys with big guns ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 Ah good point! To be honest I am not sure, I will check but it should be the same in the demo so anyone who want's to have a look at their dead Shermans (or that German vehicle for those spoiler inclined!) and report back then have at it! Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hnh3_cm Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Oh no! Not barrel droop again! I thought you had been cured, Madmatt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmorse Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 heart break of limp barrel again madmatt, perhaps a Viagra Rx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I am all sad now... Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armorbuff Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Did you know the Germans had harems for their Aryan men to have relations with to make their perfect race? It would have been nice to incorporate this into CM players who get great scenario and operation scores to be rewarded with trips to these houses of pleasure, complete with exotic film footage of these encounters. Allied heros could have been similarly rewarded by visits to brothels in France , Belgium, Holland and maybe Germany towards the end. With again some film footage of these erotic encounters Also no one has mentioned this but can you get medals in the game? I want to win CMOH's and DSC's and Silver Stars. And If I play as Germans, I want Iron crosses and Knights Crosses etc for great games. [This message has been edited by armorbuff (edited 06-06-2000).] [This message has been edited by armorbuff (edited 06-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commissar: Considering how detailed CM is at modeling virtually everything, I was wondering if it is possible to not only brew up an enemy tank but also create that very satisfying Jack-in-the-box effect of the turret just completely flying off the tank from an overwhelmingly effective hit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There are a lot of great photos of the blown-off turrets. I believe most of them are the result of secondary explosions from the ammo and fuel stew, though. BTS has been suspiciously silent on the topic- usually a good sign. I LIKE the fact that most tank kills DON'T brew up. It makes it so much more satisfying when they do (like totally powdering a clay pigeon instead of just breaking it up- score's the same, but you feel like you're having a better day). If CM2 threw in a secondary or two I wouldn't complain. There's no shame in appealing to the inner puerile (even more) and it could happen on turret penetrations every 50th time, for instance. Then there's the occasional 500lb. Jabo or the 240mm direct hit. Would a 155 do that? Dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Mark IV said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There are a lot of great photos of the blown-off turrets. I believe most of them are the result of secondary explosions from the ammo and fuel stew, though<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Every one I've ever seen was from an ammo secondary, specifically the HE/HEAT going off. Propellant alone doesn't seem to do it--the flash squirts out every small gap instead--and fuel fires aren't usually under the turret and aren't violent enough anyway. A lot more tanks have minor secondaries that unseat the turret but don't blow it completely off. Crapgame said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>never noticed the turret actually looking like it is not quite sitting correctly on the turret ring though<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Contrary to Targetdrone's opinion, turret displacement does NOT happen every time a tank is knocked out in CM. Only seems to happen about 30-50% of the time. This seems reasonable to me. Such skewed turrets result in real life from small HE secondaries, which aren't that common, but are moreso than full pop-tops. HE is after all relatively hard to set off (for an explosive) so you don't always get a secondary, and it's not always very big. Mark IV said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Then there's the occasional 500lb. Jabo or the 240mm direct hit. Would a 155 do that? Dunno.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What blows turrets completely off (and sometimes shreds the whole hull) is a lot of HE going off at once inside. Turrets weigh many tons, remember. So basically anything capable of getting inside the tank and setting off most or all of the HE has a chance of causing such a secondary. Thus, arty HE shells wouldn't be very likely to cause such disasters, simply because they're not that likely to penetrate. OTOH, if one fell through an open turret hatch, that's a lot of bang in the ammo stowage area. Also, the more HE aboard, the more chance of a bigger secondary. On the tank pix page in my sig is a link to my Gulf War page. On it you'll see some photos of 2S1 122mm SP guns in various states of disassembly following internal HE secondaries. They range from externally intact but internally ruined to totally obliterated. All of them were hit with the same thing: DPICM submunitions from 155mm arty. And most of them had the same amount of HE aboard. So as you can see, the effects vary a lot even with the same basic situation. ------------------ -Bullethead jtweller@delphi.com WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Bullet - Interesting pics on your site. How big are those submunitions that caused that to happen??? I think I am going to have to watch my movie files more closely. Every time I think I have seen it all in this game, something else seems to blow me away (besides that damned American artillery). I have not seen the turrets askew yet. Is it more likely to happen if the tank brews up? ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasj Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I believe that turret popping in WWII happened mostly under the same conditions as the Gulf War and other military encounters. Mostly it took the caliber and velocity of large guns/artillery 155mm and bombs. If you look at most of the Iraqi tanks that were destroyed by AG “Air to Ground” missiles “IE. Hellfire” or 155mm artillery on a flat trajectory used as LOS antitank guns and not indirect fire, and indirect artillery that scored a direct hit on the deck plate that their turrets were more than just removed, and rather sometimes quite a distance from the impact area. Most tanks destroyed by other tank guns though leave the turrets mostly in place, and were the turrets were removed it was mostly due to the secondary explosions of munitions in the hold. Overall this would be historically possible to have on CM as a result of the above conditions , but as an eye candy I would have to ask that BTS remain diligent on being realistically correct, even though it’s not as pleasing to see the tank flipping in the air, and if added to make it the exception to the rule and not the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 It should be rare. It should occur at random intervals within a minute or 2 after the hit. An M4 might brew with a fuel fire for a bit before the ammo rack is heated and served. It should have the blast radius of a nice HE shell so any cowering infantry get suppressed or maimed. I would not expect to see the turret arcing through the air or anything. My .02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Yes I like eye candy too and I would love to see a secondary explosion where the turret pops or jumps up or the tank explodes again a minute or two after the initial hit, the the associate collateral damage of an HE shell to near by units. Does anyone know how this is Modeled in Panzer Elite? I have a Mac so I have not seen much of the game, but what I saw of it looks like it has plenty of nice graphics and some nice eye candy. Does PE simulate the secondary explosion? If so how and when? For that matter has anyone ever seen any war game model the secondary explosion with the turret popping? I haven't. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Crapgame said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How big are those submunitions that caused that to happen???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not big at all. They were about the size and shape of tuna cans. Each contained a shaped charge. When one landed on the top of a vehicle, this would blow a lance of plasma and molten metal inside. If this came in contact with the ammo, KABOOM! If it didn't, then the top of the vehicle would just have some small holes in it and whatever was below would be damaged (engine, crew, etc.) Thomasj said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I believe that turret popping in WWII happened mostly under the same conditions as the Gulf War and other military encounters. Mostly it took the caliber and velocity of large guns/artillery 155mm and bombs. If you look at most of the Iraqi tanks that were destroyed by AG “Air to Ground” missiles “IE. Hellfire” or 155mm artillery on a flat trajectory used as LOS antitank guns and not indirect fire, and indirect artillery that scored a direct hit on the deck plate that their turrets were more than just removed, and rather sometimes quite a distance from the impact area<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This situation isn't a secondary. A really big HE explosion on the outside of a turret sometimes has enough force to knock a turret off its mountings, even completely off the vehicle. It happens because turrets are mostly held in place by their own weight, so any force large enough to move a turret can pretty easily break the few bolts locking it down. Internal secondaries blow off turrets for the same reasons, but have the advantage that the explosion is contained in the hull at least partially, so it's more like popping a cork than hitting a golf ball. Mark IV said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It should occur at random intervals within a minute or 2 after the hit. An M4 might brew with a fuel fire for a bit before the ammo rack is heated and served.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't entirely agree. In my experience, if the turret comes all or partially off, it almost always happens immediately with the fatal hit. This is the only time large external forces can do it. It's also the best time for a large propellant fire which, due to its extremely high heat, has the best chance of setting off internal HE rounds. Fuel fires have cooked off HE--it's happened a lot on aircraft carriers, for example. However, in such cases, the bombs have been totally awash in massive amounts of burning fuel for a fairly long time, allowing the large amount of heat required to explode the HE to build up. Vehicles don't seem to contain enough fuel for this to occur. Of course, fuzed shells cook off easier, because the fuzes and detonators cook off at lower temps and then set off the HE. And most vehicle ammo is fuzed in the ready racks already. However, even this takes some doing (shell fuzes are designed to withstand being fired from cannon, after all). Suffice it to say that I've never seen a vehicle HE secondary occur from a fuel fire. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It should have the blast radius of a nice HE shell so any cowering infantry get suppressed or maimed. I would not expect to see the turret arcing through the air or anything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For a small secondary that just knocks the turret cock-eyed, I don't think there should be much, if any, external blast radius. The explosion is contained within the hull. Pretty much the same for just popping the turret completely off an essentially intact hull--the blast is all going up. OTOH, if there is sufficient HE involved to totally destroy the vehicle, IMHO there should be a very large blast radius, including all the big fragments. Basically, I'm saying it's pretty much an all-or-nothing affair. However, you don't often see solid things like welded or cast tanks getting blown completely to bits. Most often, the hull and turret retain most of their mass and external shape. This is for 2 main reasons. First, the armor constrains the blast to follow the path of least resistance and pop the turret off. Second, tanks don't hold has much HE as other types of vehicles, so the secondary isn't as powerful as that in, say, an SP gun. So I think the current CM graphics and effects for brewed tanks is fine in most cases. Thin-skinned vehicles, OTOH, are usually devastated. They're not as strong structurally and they often carry a lot of really big HE shells. This is the type of thing IMHO that should have a good chance of wiping out nearby grunts and using fragmented models for graphics afterwards. Perhaps old riveted tanks had the same problem but I've never seen one of these blow up. The thing that should have the most effect on exposed troops, however, is the Katyushka launcher. Lots of explosive, lots of light metal for fragments, and nothing to contain it. In the Gulf, we lit up a whole battery of them, including the adjacent ammo trucks (DPICM is a wonderful thing ). There was nothing left in the area taller than 6" except engine blocks, only a few recognizable human fragments, and wreckage was strewn up to 400m. ------------------ -Bullethead jtweller@delphi.com WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Bullet - Nasty stuff indeed. I just think its pretty cool to see the turret askew every now and then. It's just a added cool feature. I definitely am not advocating that every time a tank is KO'd that its turret should blow off and land 50 meters away, because as Bullethead is saying, it certainly doesn't happen every time. ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thin-skinned vehicles, OTOH, are usually devastated. They're not as strong structurally and they often carry a lot of really big HE shells. This is the type of thing IMHO that should have a good chance of wiping out nearby grunts and using fragmented models for graphics afterwards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK, that'd be fine. Explosions are good, is my point. I have really enjoyed getting to know my infantry gun for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 tom w or aka tom w: Panzer Elite, which I do like, does a rather poor job with destroyed vehicles. This may have been rectified in a mod or a patch (I've been playing strictly CM since the beta demo came out), but in the basic game all dead vehicles are just jet black hulks. No colour at all. It's one of the few bad points with the game. Forgive me PE players if I'm a bit behind the times on this. I DO like the game. GAFF [This message has been edited by gaffertape (edited 06-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted June 8, 2000 Author Share Posted June 8, 2000 I recall reading something about the IS-2/3 tanks and their 122mm cannons. Supposedly they were very powerful and could "rip" a tank turret off the main body of the tank. I am not sure what kind of tank they are referring to (Mk III??). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armorbuff Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Originally posted by armorbuff: Also no one has mentioned this but can you get medals in the game? I want to win CMOH's and DSC's and Silver Stars. And If I play as Germans, I want Iron crosses and Knights Crosses etc for great games. I already asked about medals. guess you cant get them. Would have been a nice touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by armorbuff: I already asked about medals. guess you cant get them. Would have been a nice touch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You want them air-dropped on the FEBA within 30 minutes of the action? What good would that do, assuming Fed Ex were willing to fly tactical? I'd rather have another belt of .30 cal or an extra 'faust in these timeframes. Actually, the 'puter should track and award the player/commander the medals, if applicable, after the engagement. I would have a Good Conduct Medal with Oak Leaves by now, I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EScurlock Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Actually, the 'puter should track and award the player/commander the medals, if applicable, after the engagement. I would have a Good Conduct Medal with Oak Leaves by now, I'm sure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here's something that could be incorporated into ladder play. The looser should write the recommendation. Any other ideas on awarding players medals? ------------------ He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts