Guest major_tom Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Hi All This a great game.... But I introduced to two of my "military historian" (they are both in their 30's and Canadian and have never been in the military) buddies who have played Panzer leader and Squad leader and Trobruk and and most of the other Avalon Hill and SSI board games. So we play Last Defence on the hotseat. My friend has played this scenario once before and knows the American have no tanks off the start. He is the germans and runs his Tiger staight down the road unsupported, ahead of all his infantry, I have moved the bazooka on in the center up to the small exposed building that his tiger drives right by on the second turn, so it gets shot or two at the tiger the tiger spots the bazsooka , pops smoke and backs-up all to his shear amzament, but wait this is not the good part. On his third move he points his Tiger at the building and eliminates the bazooka, But at the SAME time his Tigers flank and hind quarter are largerly exposed to the Bazooka dug in behind the wall he has NO supression fire on the Bazooka, (he admited he did not even see it) and it fires ONE shot and Knocks out the Tiger OK now he FREAKS out! "There's NO WAY a bazooka can take out a Tiger" he claims.... No Way No Way! Well its flank was exposed and the Rested Bazooka did get a clean unsupressed shot at it. Any way ...how can explain that this is a GREAT game and that it really is a GOOD (ok I would say Excelent) simulation of Post D-Day WW II combat? Can some one help me with statics and armour thicknesses and pentration chances or statics of bazookas on Tiger Tanks? Apologies to Major Tom.. Sorry I have not changed my name I was in too much of a hurry for the answer to this question as my friend claims the research or odds in this case are faulty. He knows about odds in other tank games on Board games so I told my bazooka got lucky and rolled a "2" or a "12" on a pair of six sided dice. (this was the Lucky k-kill combination to take out a Panzer IIIj in Torbruk). So he ranted all night about my lucky Tiger take out shot, of course when the Hellcat tank Destroyers showed up he was toasted. He Did brag all night about the glorious victory on the other laptop (we had two hotseat games going simultenously) his 5 Shermans in Chance Encounter royaly screwed my 3 Stugs he was very happy about that! thanks for all the fun and Entertainment Big Time Software This is Truly a GREAT game! (bazookas knocking out Tigers aside) -tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 No offense to your two alleged historian buddies but playing ASL does not necessarily make one an SME(Subject Matter Expert) on WW2, though it might make them SMEs on ASL. It is VERY MUCH possible for a Bazooka to take out a Tiger if it hits it in the right spot particularly with a flank of rear shot. There are enough historical examples of this happening. Heck there are even examples of Tigers being kocked out by rifle grenades when hit just right. And by the way even in ASL a nautral snake eyes DR even with a PF/or BAZ results in a CH (Critical Hit) which can disable or destroy any vehilce (IIRC it's been a while since I've played ASL). Your SME friends should be a little bit wiser in the tactics they choose to employ their Tigers. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Your SME friends should be a little bit wiser in the tactics they choose to employ their Tigers. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Well, let's just look at the in-game figures shall we? 1. Tiger Side and rear armour is basically 80 mm at 0 degrees. In a couple of places it is 80mm at 8 degrees and in one portion (lower hull) 60 mm. The Zook is rated as penetrating 90mm of armour set at 0 degrees on average. End result the zook, if it hits the side SHOULD penetrate the Tiger's armour. Your friend made a basic tactical error letting a zook in on the Tiger's flank.. In one game I hit a Tiger with SEVEN consecutive zook shots to his frontal armour and did nothing more than suppress him and keep him scared. On the beta list we had an interesting discussion about rifle grenades etc and people were able to find an example of a rifle grenade ( MUCH weaker AT weapon than a zook) taking out a Tiger so if a rifle grenade can do it then a zook certainly can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Even in ASL, a bazooka hitting the side or rear of a Tiger has an excellent (> 50% IIRC) chance of scoring a kill. From the front, it would take a lucky shot (but still probably a 5% chance or so). ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxhole Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Can A a regular squad take out a tank? If so how far do they have to be away from it? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Funny story maj. tom the 2nd Had almost same thing happen to me (me as amis). Foxhole, From what I've heard (am going to try it soon), you can close assault a tank. I mean CLOSE ! Like the guys are basically pounding on the tank. Several people said they've seen shoving actions down gun barrels and then the gun's been damaged. Hopefully, Brit. Abn will have Gammon Bombs (Never used them in CC2 when I asked them to ). US Engineers have explosives that should be somewhat effective, I think. ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Regular squads can take out an AFV. The German squads, especially, if they have the Panzerfuast. They are all Panzerfaust 100s modelled in the beta demo, I believe, which means that they have a range of 100 m. However, they won't actually fire them at a tank unless they are much closer. From my experience 40 m or less is a good kill range. Also, although very rare, the allied squads can take out an AFV with grenades in the beta demo. My guys took out a StuG of the other Major Tom with grenades when he sat there close to them. We were both amazed. In the final game, two mods have been made as I understand it. (1) the German squads will use their fausts more readily. Currently they won't if there is also infantry to engage, and; (2) the Allied troops will carry rifle grenades and work similar to the faust. ------------------ desert rat wannabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los: It is VERY MUCH possible for a Bazooka to take out a Tiger if it hits it in the right spot particularly with a flank of rear shot. There are enough historical examples of this happening. Los<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe in Burgett's "Seven Roads to Hell" he gives an example of this. During a particular foggy morning, a 101st trooper crawled out of his foxhole to a Tiger that was on a hill overlooking their positions. It was foggy so he had to find the tank by the sound of its idling engine. The trooper crawled up to the tank and felt around to line up with the flank of the tank. He then crawled back several feet and aimed for the flank. Whoosh! No more Tiger. He took out several more tanks till he ran out of ammo. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Brit Airborne have Gammon Bombs now . Do Charles and Steve think of everything or do they think of everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 hehe... we don't necessarily think of everything, but we do listen to those who do Los was the one that convinced us to add rifle grenades. Seems that in this time of relative peace in the world our armed forces specialists have ample time to do high quality research inbetween kicking the hind quarters of new recruits Seriously, the rifle grenade thing was very well documented by Los, which says a heck of a lot for his research abilities since there is almost no info on the buggers. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Foxhole I dont know if you count a Stugg, but In LD I had a Stugg in close to some inf picking away at them and some other long rangs targets and they knocked the Stugg out. I'm not sure how, couldnt really tell from the replay, except they were the only thing on the board shooting at the Stugg and the only Bazooka team left alive was over 500 meters away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 I had a Brit Airborne unit take out a MkIV in CC2.. I was more amazed than anything else, I hadn't ordered them to do it. Then again, it <did> drive right in the middle of the unit, and the accompanying PIAT had just gotten plastered..Haven't been able to repeat that feat since though. Manic Moran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Thank you Steve and Fionn! Hopefully my soldiers will be happier to use them now than in CC2. Usual response I got was "We're pinned down!" while the tank was basically on top of them before they were wiped out by the tank. ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted March 26, 2000 Share Posted March 26, 2000 "Soon after midnight, a Tiger, one of a number of the 501st Heavy Panzer Battalion following in Peiper's wake, approached the [stavelot] town square along the street leading up from the bridge over the Ambleve. Men of a platoon of Company A under First Lieutenant [Murray] knocked it out with a bazooka fired at close range, and the great carcass blocked the narrow street. As two following Tigers tried to turn into even narrower side streets, they had to back and fill to make the turns, leaving them vulnerable to Murray's bazookamen. Well-placed rockets knocked them out." - one of several descriptions of Tigers lost to bazookas in "A Time for Trumpets", Charles B. MacDonald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted March 26, 2000 Share Posted March 26, 2000 US Airborne also carried the equiv. of Gammon bombs. Are they also modelled? As for the rifle gren. are we talking about a standard gren. with a long range, or a does this thing have a bigger blast? The reason I ask is that there were several different types of RGs used I am trying to get a handle on where you place yours. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisPick Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 My understanding is that they are AT rifle grenades. They seem to have a good effect against light armour. Helps a lot of the squad is not under suppresion (like all the other infantry AT stuff...) They are a nice addition, but don't rely on them as your only AT defense! Chris Disclaimer: Beta Tester blah blah blah blah blah Steve will kick my ass if I tell you more blah blah blah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002318.html for more on rifle grenades Jason - plucking url fruit from the search function tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted April 4, 2000 Share Posted April 4, 2000 Just curious... US Airborne troopers also carried/used Gammon bombs in the D-day landings (and afterwards). Are they also modelled or are they being givin only to the British Paras? ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted April 4, 2000 Share Posted April 4, 2000 sorry.... Can some one tell me what are Gammon Bombs, and how they work and what they do? Also what are Rifle grenades what are they and what do they do? thanks -Tom W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted April 4, 2000 Share Posted April 4, 2000 Gammon Bombs were first used by the British (AFAIK) and were basically just a few pounds of plastique explosive and a detonator. The paratroopers used them for many purposes including demo uses, etc and they were a great utility item for them as they operated without support behind enemy lines. But their most well know use (and main one in CM) is to close assault tanks and AFVs. Rifle grenades are simply modified grenades that are inserted into the end of a specially adapted rifle and fired using blank cartridges (most of the time). Although this greatly increased the grenade's range, they were VERY inaccurate, and with their slow rate of fire and limited blast not nearly as effective as (even) the lightest mortar. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 4, 2000 Share Posted April 4, 2000 Whoops! Missed this post for a while. Yes, US Paras have Gammon bombs as well as AT rifle grenades. The number per squad is variable. General a couple of each per squad. Yes, that does make these guys bad MoFos They had to be as they were supposed to be running around without much more support than what they have in their backpack. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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