Time spent waiting for artilliry strikes

[Andre76]

I was just thinking, shouldn't an FO have the ability to radio to the artilliry his target area, and then ask the to wait for further order before firing? -> You have an order called "Assig Target" or something. This means that you set your guns to target an area (this takes a couple of minutes) and then when you want them to fire you give the order to fire. Then it will not take so long waiting for the artilliry stike. Yeah, I know you can "buy" a marker, but I feel that this is something you shouldn't have to buy. Of course, if you want to target another area you'll be back to start. What do you think?

Are there any pratical/historical/logical reason for this not to be implemented?!

André

[This message has been edited by Andre76 (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Rattus]

I'm not sure this would be unrealistic either. Given artillery assetts which are exclusively tasked to support you (all arty in CM seems to be handled this way), they would not have the usual excuse of being too busy helping someone else to be constantly laid on a target. If the delay effectively simulates ranging procedures then this could be avoided by having pre-registered points (only in scenarios where there had been sufficient time pre-game to do this). The arty would then simply wait for the signal and boom. While on this, it would be nice to be able to call in box and creeping barrages instead of just concentrations - and to specify more varieties of ammo - like incendiary or shrapnel (where historically issued).

Michael

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rattus:

I'm not sure this would be unrealistic either. Given artillery assetts which are exclusively tasked to support you (all arty in CM seems to be handled this way), they would not have the usual excuse of being too busy helping someone else to be constantly laid on a target.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did you get this idea? Unless you assume that your units are the only ones in the regiment or division that are presently engaging the enemy (a pretty large assumption), the artillery is in fact going to be pretty busy providing support all across the front. Don't assume that because you have an FO you have a dedicated battery. Having a dedicated battery or two is swell, but uncommon.

Michael

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Having a dedicated battery or two is swell, but uncommon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if it's your own battalion or regimental organic mortars it's not.

[Rattus]

I entirely agree - the chance of battalion commander having exclusive use of divisional level arty is remote - but it seems in CM that this is the way it is assigned. (The delays in CM do not seem related to where the arty support is coming from.) In fact I would expect response times from div level assests to be quite long (if they did not simply come back & say hard luck too busy!). Now battalion/regimental (as opposed to brigade+)level assets would be another thing. Given the existence of Regimental cannon cmpys etc it might not be too unreasonable to suppose that 105mm howitz (US)t & 120mm mrt (GERM) might not be exclusively assigned to you for a special op. To really address the issue properly CM would have to moded each nationality's distinctive art systems - which might just be too complicated. I would like to see (eg) a Brit FAO calling in an "UNCLE" target from every btty in range!

Michael

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Are there any pratical/historical/logical reason for this not to be implemented?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there are .

Given the in-game factors that affect how much time it takes for a spotter to get rounds on target (LOS, TRP, and experience level), it seems apparent to me that the delay time before the FFE starts is CM's way of dealing with the process of adjusting fire onto the target.

For a TRP, arty has ALREADY been adjusted onto that spot, so basically your only wait is for the message to get through to the guns, the guns to be aimed at the pre-set coordinates, and the shells to travel several miles to you.

If you don't have a TRP, then the FO has to adjust the battery's fire until it's landing in the desired place. This is because the FO's target location sent to the guns is only an estimate relative to the map's grid system. So the guns have to fire spotting rounds and the FO has to send back instructions on how to move the impacts to the desired point. This may take several shots.

Not having an LOS to the desired target area increases the time required for the adjusting process because either the FO is having to adjust by sound only (hard to do when there is other shooting going on) or has to wait for smoke to build up above the LOS blocks. So there is a chance that the spotting rounds won't be seen by the FO, requiring the battery to fire more of them, and the FO's processing of each spotting round also takes longer.

High experience decreases the time required because the FO is more accurate in estimating the target's grid position. This means the 1st spotter round will be closer to the target, meaning less spotter rounds are required. Also, an experienced FO is a better judge of the corrections required to hit the target, and is smoother and more efficient in communicating these to the guns.

Therefore, simply telling the guns what target you will shoot at but not letting them fire will not save you any significant amount of time. Until the guns start firing, there can be no adjustment, and the adjustment process is what takes up all the time before the FFE starts.

Having said all this, however, there are a few realistic things CM could add that would do sorta what you want. A good one would be in-game TRP creation. This is because once arty fires FFE at an adjusted target, that target is assigned a unique target number or name by the FO and the gunners write down the firing data they used to hit it. IOW, they have created a TRP at the spot where they fired last.

So say early in the game you shoot a non-TRP location. After a couple turns of bombardment, you switch to another target on the other side of the map. But then the 2nd enemy wave moves through the area of your first bombardment. You should be able to hit that same spot again as if it was a TRP, with very low delay times because there is no longer a need to adjust fire there. Of course, on-map mortars should NOT be able to fire indirect at TRPs made during the play of the battle, because they are not part of the same communications net.

I also have a nit to pick with TRPs in general. IMHO, there should be narrow rings around them at 100m and 200m radii where you would get the same or nearly the same time benefits of the TRP. This is because FOs can tell the guns to shoot like "200m azimuth 3200 mils from TRP #4". At the guns, this is a very simple tweak off the known data of the TRP's coordinates so should not require much, if any, adjusting prior to FFE. So I'd give such missions the same or maybe only slightly more delay as shooting at the TRP itself. This would apply to both pre-set and in-game TRPs.

On the same subject, I take a bit of issue with how you can "adjust" an on-going fire mission. IMHO, the radius around the current point of aim in which the targeting line is lime green (and delay times low) is in the wrong place. It looks like about a 50m radius. Normally, given the spacing of impacts and the kill radius of the explosions, FOs wouldn't even bother with such small moves.

So instead, I propose that the low-delay fire shifting be handled as described for TRPs above, being available only at 100m and 200m radii from the current point of impact.

------------------

-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Rattus: (The delays in CM do not seem related to where the arty support is coming from.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. Battalion mortars (81mm, 120mmm) will come in on the order on 1 minute, whereas Divisional Batteries (105mm) will be ont he order of 2 to 4 minutes (experience-based), and the Corps stuff (rockets, 203mm) will take at least 3 minutes.

That's what I've found in the game and from the earlier forum topics, anyway.

-dale

[This message has been edited by dalem (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Rattus]

Thanks - I only have the Demo still so it's hard to make the comparisons. I was misled by the (nominal) 2 minute delay for some German 81mm mtrs viz 1 minute for some US 105mm - this appears to have been due to poor experience of the MFC. Actually now I recall - the US 81mm mtrs nominal delay was also 1 minute - I'll check that again. Am I the only one who wants to use incendiary rocket launcher ammo?!

(How do I put smilies in?)

Michael

[robo]

Slightly related topic - there is no way to call in smoke is there?

[Guest Offwhite]

robo - select your arty observer and look on his orders menu (right-click or space), there is a Smoke order there. Works just like any other bombardment with the time delay, etc. Just a side note, if you've got multiple spotters I'd recommend using the smaller stuff (81mm and so on) for smoke and save your heavies for laying the smack down. Good luck!

In reference to the original topic of delay times, MacDonald's "Company Commander" describes the interminable wait after calling for arty... that two-minute wait can seem like (or actually be ) a lifetime!

[This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 08-03-2000).]