Blacks Served on the Front Lines in WW2: lets dispell the myth they did not.

[Slapdragon]

John,

RMC has helped you out here because now we just need to find who collapsed Mean's platoon. My bet was it will be a lower level officer -- like a Battalion commander.

[Keith]

As a side note I have read the Joseph Pieper's men murdered a bunch of black men they had captured. It is interesting that this incident is rarely mentioned compared to the "Malmady Massacre", which involved exclusively white troopers. The source was Micheal Reynold's book "Men of Steel".

[therontmoore]

If anybody is interested, I have squad pix of African-American soldiers that I use playing CM! Presently, I am trying to find old photos of tankers from the 761st as replacements for the picture of the US tankers.

[therontmoore]

Also several months back, WWII magazine did an article about the murder of a group of African-American soldiers (artillery or AAA, can't remember which) by SS troops during the Battle of the Bulge.

[Frenchy]

I am surprised at this discussion. I've known all along that black troops fought on the front. I had assumed others did also...so much for assuming! For a good account of black soldiers during WW2 read Gerald Astor's "The Right to Fight".

As for mixing the units, the 104th Infantry Division "Timberwolves" was one of the first to do so in the ETO, in Feb - Mar 1945.

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[Slapdragon]

Part of the problem is not the proving they did, but proving soldiers mixed. In John's case, he just wants a copy or reference to a copy of the high level order authorizing soldiers to integrate as his level of evidence. I do not think this is all that unreasonable, except I think integration occured unnofficialy -- by combining units from "5th Platoon" forces, and not by some order from on high.

Think of it this way Frenchy. You are my producer for a TV program -- a history documentary on the 70th Division. I am your researcher or even your director. I come back with an interview of a villager from Vic Sur Seille that says, "I remember the 70th when they stopped in town..." You are not aware of that happening, so before I put this peice in a documentary you are going to want some proof that the 70th was ever in Vic-Sur-Seille.

[Slapdragon]

OK John, rereading what I have on hand (I am reordering some stuff) it is clear that the 5th Platoon integrations was not ordered by Eisenhower but were a case of it occuring at the Division level and lower. Confusion can be coming from the fact that Patton formed integrated units during Bulge ad hoc, and that the Army as a whole in the ETO formed organized segregated units at a very very low level (the company level) which allowed commanders like the officer in charge of the 104th the chance to integrate when faced with manpower shortages.

Blacks made up 8% of the US troop strength, but front line infantry could not have been more than 8000 black troops and probably less in integrated units.

To extend this, black soldiers were officially integrated in 1948, but the last black unit was not collapsed until 1954 and until 1951 all black units (example the 25th Regimental Combat Team) served in Korea.

[Aacooper]

Two things:

If you want to play a historical scenario with a "Colored" unit, get "Task Force Blackshear Attack Climbach" from CMHQ Scenario Depot. I found last night that a Captain Charles L. Thomas won the Medal of Honor for that battle. I don't have that in the scenario briefing yet.

Earlier on this thread, BTS made it sound like many soldiers were fleeing during the Bulge battle. While there was a lot of retreating, only once, when a conglomerate group of soldiers near Honsfeld fled without fighting, did US soldiers run without fighting. The rest of the retrograde movement was sending rear area units further back, and conducting militarily necessary withdrawals. Because of the traffic jams, and the fact it was the Army's first big European setback, it has gone down in some histories as people fleeing from combat. Anyway that's Charles MacDonald's view in "A Time For Trumpets" - he fought there, and was a historian for the Army after the war.

[Frenchy]

AA Cooper: There is an excellent write up of the Climbach action you speak of in Keith Bonn's book, "Ordeal in the Vosges",... the footnotes list the Order of Battle for Captain Thomas' outfit. Unfortunately, German OOB is sketchy. I did a sceanrio on this Battle of Steel Panthers a few years back.

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[Slapdragon]

BTS was referring to the only surrender of a US division size unit in the war, which happened in Bulge and was a serious toweling for the US Army, while in many areas rear area units actually performed better that some of the green front line units, some of these rear area units being black.

[Major Tom]

Actually, the Philippine Division, which was actually a US Army division (Also known as the 12th Division?) surrendered at Bataan in 1942. The most US Soldiers surrendered in one engagement was either after Bataan, or after Corregidor.

[:USERNAME:]

My friends father served in Pattons army during WWII. He loved to tell the story of how his recon unit was supported by a tank unit with black tankers. He claimed the germans KO'd a tank and the tankers left their asses hanging in the breeze. They extricated themselves and went back and found the unit. He claimed they pulled the TCs out of the turrets and beat them down till their helmets bent in. Bn officers from both units had to intervene before people got killed.

He also tells a story about black intel officers coming in a jeep and his unit refusing to turn over the germans (they were all from wisconsin and spoke german) to them.

[Slapdragon]

You are correct Tom, this would be the second largest breaking / surrender of a US unit.

Lewis, you are probably victim of an urban legend. The only full tank unit in ETO is accounted for almost day by day and won almost unanimous praise from its commanders. Or, you could be referring to a unit which fled during Bulge and beat up a bunch of black trucker after getting their butt whipped by Germans.

That is not to say all Black units were stellar. Both the 92nd and the 93 took a bit to get into shape and had embarressing moments, and one black towed AT unit was renown in ETO for running away like rabbits whenever they faced the enemy.

[:USERNAME:]

I am just relating a vets story. And it backs up your origional post about blacks in front line units. Lets dispel the myth that any race isnt susceptible to cowardice.

I didnt know every black tank platoons every action was accounted for Slappy. Thats unique!

Were there black intel officers? My friends father had no problem telling anyone how he felt. He said he didnt like the black guys attitude and was getting plenty of intel from the german himself. The intel officers had a wall of people between the germans and themselves and left quickly.

Lewis

PS Hows the brain clot healing?

[Slapdragon]

No, the tank unit is well accounted for -- oddly enough because they are black they were tracked really closely and rarely operated as less than a full company. That was not true of a few units, and the running away more matched a different unit. The beating up story only matched one instance because violence against blacks in the ETO was so rare to be unusual.

The Intel Major is very possible though.

Not a blood clot, but it is doing well, thanks for asking.

[:USERNAME:]

His father also claimed they brawled russian units when they met up.

[Slapdragon]

I am still looking for that cite, but was told it was on a John McCain web site. It is not, unsurprisingly, on the Air Force web site about Wilson.

If anyone knows of a book on the younger Wilson at West Point, I would like to read it.

[RascistsSuck]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by :USERNAME::

My friends father served in Pattons army during WWII. He loved to tell the story of how his recon unit was supported by a tank unit with black tankers. He claimed the germans KO'd a tank and the tankers left their asses hanging in the breeze. They extricated themselves and went back and found the unit. He claimed they pulled the TCs out of the turrets and beat them down till their helmets bent in. Bn officers from both units had to intervene before people got killed.

He also tells a story about black intel officers coming in a jeep and his unit refusing to turn over the germans (they were all from wisconsin and spoke german) to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this kind of rascist **** should be punished quickly and severely. When confronted Lewis's response to me was:

From: Foofoofling@aol.com | Block address

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:18:49 EST

Subject: Re: Racist Comments on CM Forums

To: lewisshoulddie@yahoo.com

Add Addresses

sorry but its the truth.

Nothing helps cowards. But you know that dont you?

Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I'm posting this anonymously because I don't want to be flamed.

[Slapdragon]

Racistsuck, I believe that Lewis's friend may well have been telling Lewis that story with a racist motive, but we do have to look at several things that are true, and could well be discussed in an open and academic forum. First was that for every case of extreme heroism amoung black units in combat, there is one of cowardice, and that cowardice got lots more attention in 1944-45. Lewis's example does not historically match any ETO tanker unit, but one towed antitank unit had a great deal of problems with running away, so I am forced to give Lewis and his friend the benefit of the doubt.

Beating up of black soldiers was extremely rare in ETO by white soldiers, but it did occur, mostly REMFs beating up supply and support people. Lewis's story does not work well here, but has a remote sliver of a possibility.

The story of the Intel Major was not only possibly, but may well have happened, and is not a sign of race. A strange Intel officer of any race may not get cooperation from soldiers of a unit that did not recognize him. So this is strictly neutral.

Did Lewis mean these posts in a racist tone? I cannot say, but since this discussion was academic, and was of a subject that is little known by many, I would prefer to think that he was actually throwing in an event that he felt would advance the discussion, however poorly chosen the wording and the topic of the event was.

I say this because some people (not the person behind RacistSucks) use escalation of arguments to get a thread that they do not like closed down, and I would hate to see this thread closed down in that way. It would not benefit anyone.

[therontmoore]

Yes, it is true that there are heroes and cowards in all races. In the WWII magazine article that I read about the SS murdering the Black artillerymen, the artillerymen surrendered without a fight even

though they were in a stone farmhouse facing less than a dozen SS troopers.

But many accounts of cowardice are base on officers unfit to lead, willing to surrender than fight it out! In another issue of WWII magazine, a Sgt. slugged a Lt. for surrendering to the Germans without a fight during the Battle of the Bulge (this was an all-white unit)!

In the Italian campaign, the all-black 92nd Infantry was poorly led! The US Army felt it was better for the 92nd to be led by White Southerners (who for the most part were very racist), which led to a large mistrust between the troops and their officers! The troops more trusted their few Black officers (i.e. Vernon Baker - awarded the Medal of Honor)than the racist White officers who resented their assignment to the 92nd.

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>sorry but its the truth.

Nothing helps cowards. But you know that dont you?

Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How odd.

I don't get this topic, I mean was anyone really questioning whether blacks served in WW2? I can't see how or why someone would do that unless they had an agenda or something.

You can't say that the black soldiers were inherently more "cowardly", I expect that low morale or poor leadership are the major factors. I wouldn't fight so well if I had a racist superior and I was thousands of miles from home.

[Slapdragon]

The topic was generated in 3 forum discussions, two big chat room room discussions, and various e-mails. Only two people questions blacks in combat, many people questions their fighting side by side with whites, and most people did not know how extensive their contribution was.

We have to face it though, war gaming is a white bread hobby in the US, mostly because the struggles of black veterans are not wide discussed, recognized, or in an era when anything the smacks of "political correctness" is chastised (note how many people felt they needed to apologize for saying anything about black soldiers by saying, "I don't want to be politically correct") to the point were racism may be required to start any conversation in order to satisfy the anti-political correct crowd.

Many of us have learned from this and other forums if you read the discussions, I was not aware that the 92nd served in combat until a week ago.

So, I am happy that only a few people freaked over this subject, and only one really posted anything objectionable, and it was able to be interpreted as not objectionable.

[:USERNAME:]

1. Its spelled racist.

2. You are a coward and I dont like cowards.

3. Why not cut and paste your whole message to me? Why just my retort?

4. My post clearly was dispelling the myth that "blacks did not serve in the front lines" (and who started that "myth"?). And yes, they had acts of courage as well as cowardice.

5. You make another death threat to me and I will pursue it.

6. I would like to beat your cowardly face in.

[:USERNAME:]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

I don't get this topic, I mean was anyone really questioning whether blacks served in WW2? I can't see how or why someone would do that unless they had an agenda or something.

B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are getting to the heart of this. Slapdragon needs to rile up contrived scenarios so he can pontificate and hold court. Notice his judgemental tone and stuffiness? This comes from his personality disorder that drove him to be a professor. Its Pontificatingly Driven Personality Disorder or PDPD for short. He only feels normal when he is acting in a mother hen atmosphere holding court.

He knows that race is a loaded subject and that anything less than glorious accounts of blacks in WWII is viewed as racist. He even needs to send me email under another name to get this farce heated up.

Similar situations are firemen that set fires (secretely) so that they can put them out and "be the hero". Pretty sad.

Slapdragon get well. Everyone here is pulling for you. I feel sorry for your students.

Lewis

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by therontmoore:

Yes, it is true that there are heroes and cowards in all races. In the WWII magazine article that I read about the SS murdering the Black artillerymen, the artillerymen surrendered without a fight even

though they were in a stone farmhouse facing less than a dozen SS troopers.

But many accounts of cowardice are base on officers unfit to lead, willing to surrender than fight it out! In another issue of WWII magazine, a Sgt. slugged a Lt. for surrendering to the Germans without a fight during the Battle of the Bulge (this was an all-white unit)!

In the Italian campaign, the all-black 92nd Infantry was poorly led! The US Army felt it was better for the 92nd to be led by White Southerners (who for the most part were very racist), which led to a large mistrust between the troops and their officers! The troops more trusted their few Black officers (i.e. Vernon Baker - awarded the Medal of Honor)than the racist White officers who resented their assignment to the 92nd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theron,

I am reading a similar account from the 92nd now. Seems the southern white officers would say to themselves that black soldiers were no good the whole time they were training. By the time the reached combat, the white officers believed it and freaked, leading the units poorly. In the 761st, a white Mjor turned and ran away the day before they reached the front lines. In the 92nd, white officer ran and never looked back, making one wonder what the black enlisted should do. In many cases long serving NCOs from the buffalo soldiers were able to draw the units back together, but the failure in the field gave black units a poor reputation that has only been dispelled in recent years.