Doug Beman Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 I know the Germans produced specialized vehicles to transport artillery FOs, based on several of their tank designs (Panther, etc) Most of the modified tank types had no main weapons, but a few retained their main guns. Will these be featured in CM2? I sure would like to see these, as little sucks more than losing an artillery FO team to something dumb like long-range machine gun fire or random mortar fire. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 This is the first I heard of special vehicles for FOs. Do you have any links to pictures or a description of such? ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted November 22, 2000 Author Share Posted November 22, 2000 I don't have links off the top of my head; pick up George Forty's or the Drs Hart's book on German tanks and they'll give details about FO vehicles. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted November 22, 2000 Author Share Posted November 22, 2000 From here: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The introduction of Panther, made its chassis and components available as base for various conversions. First of those was the Artillerie-Panzer-Beobachtung Panther proposed by Rheinmetall-Borsig in late 1942. Few proposals were made but all were rejected and eventually led to the Panzerbeobachtungwagen Panther (Artillery Observation Vehicle)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>41 were converted from Panthers returned for repairs in late 1944/45. Mounted with additional observation devices and other equipment, including range-finders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 US tanks, platoons HQs, and just about anyone else with a radio in the US Army in ETO Europe could make an artillery call -- but this was not simulated in CM -- possibly because it would make US HQs and tanks too powerful in terms of 30-60 minute engagements. What you may be referring to for the Germans on the East Front is the command and radio HTs that corridinated artillery. These units were regimental command and control arty spotters to handle the logistics of artillery firing, but were not spotters. Depending on the size of CM2 (assuming it stays the same) it may be out of the scope of the action -- as is most regimental and above C and C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: US tanks, platoons HQs, and just about anyone else with a radio in the US Army in ETO Europe could make an artillery call -- but this was not simulated in CM -- possibly because it would make US HQs and tanks too powerful in terms of 30-60 minute engagements.B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't see why we could not simulate this. If nothing else, it seems company commanders should be able to call artillery. You could make a "gamey" compromise and say company level and higher HQs with an FO "in command" can call artillery themselves, much like mortars can be used now. Also, maybe only tanks designated as Tank Platoon Leaders (kind of like HQs, but without the command radius) could call artillery. I think a little more flexibility in this area would spice things up and make for a more realistic simulation, probably. Also, if I am not mistaken, a fire mission immediately ends if and when the FO unit is eliminated. This seems wrong. I think the battery fire should continue until the fire mission is complete (say 3 to 4 salvoes?) or until the battery runs out of alloted ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Runyan99: Also, if I am not mistaken, a fire mission immediately ends if and when the FO unit is eliminated. This seems wrong. I think the battery fire should continue until the fire mission is complete (say 3 to 4 salvoes?) or until the battery runs out of alloted ammo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know it's a small point, and may not even be worth the time to code. But...how would a arty battery behind the lines know immediately when an FO was killed? I would suspect there would be some period of confusion before it was known that spotter was dead. Here's what I envision. spot: "Bring fire to bear on top of hill 109" arty: "yes sir, spotting rd on the way" spot: "no, left a little" arty: "how's that?" spot: "dead on, rain the death boyz" arty: "yes sir, death on the way" arty commences full bore until spotter tells him to stop, arty runs out, or the agreed upon number of shells fall. If spotter dies, how would arty know? It's not like spot is going to say "oops, arty, I'm dead, stop firing " If he dies before he can confirm the spotting round, then yes, the rounds should never arrive. But if he dies after the main barrage arrives, there should be a variable number of rounds that land simulating uncertainty as to the condition of the FO. Am I wrong here? So, Runyan, I agree with you. But as I said, it's a small point. Back to the main topic, if only 42 were built, I doubt it will make it into CM2. Besides, if he's in a vehicle, he would have to be able to get out of the vehicle to find some of the better spotting locations (i.e., top of a 2 story building). That would be a little more difficult to code given the current engine, don't you think? Otherwise, just put an FO on a Puma and go with it. ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 This topic must fall into the: "if it doesn't have a big steaming gun I'm not interested" category. It may come as a suprise to some but one of the strengths of the early war German mechanised forces was their close coordination of artillery and armour, especially coordinating many guns onto target. The British picked up on this pretty quick in the desert. Any British FO in NWE from an armoured division or brigade would have an FO tank, which to all intents would appear as a regular Sherman except the gun was a dummy. This would ensure good communications and give the FOs mobility and protection. This is not beyond the scope of CM. The benefits of FO mobility and protection should be clear to anyone who has handled the poor foot slogging variety in CMBO. Mounting them in light armour is OK for mobility but they can't call a fire mission while a passenger which detracts from the purpose somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted November 24, 2000 Author Share Posted November 24, 2000 juardis, the topic of "the effects of the death of an FO on his arty mission" has been kicked around quite a bit. Bullethead, that unrepentant Marine, reported (IIRC) that it's SOP for the FO to be in constant contact with the battery firing the mission, not just getting the rounds on target and then going silent. That way the battery would know if he died, and the mission would be immediately aborted rather than continued with the chance of fratricide cause the arty was firing blind. DjB [This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 11-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 I for one would like to see the Panzerbefelswagen and its allied counterpart, the OP Tank, included, even if only at Battalion and higher levels. The usefulness of these vehicles would be greater if Armoured units had C&C links as infantry do now. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 The only thing I wanna know is, is why we have to disembark a FO for him to call in artillery? Why can't he spot artillery from within a vehicle such as a Jeep, Carrier, M3 Scout Car, or something similar??? BTS, could we please have a TARGET command for FOs while they are still embarked? It's a pain to have to disembark them to call for artillery which in turn wastes a turn. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 11-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman: Bullethead, that unrepentant Marine, reported (IIRC) that it's SOP for the FO to be in constant contact with the battery firing the mission, not just getting the rounds on target and then going silent. [This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 11-24-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ahhh, did not know that, thanks. But is/was that true in WW2 or just in the modern military? ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted November 28, 2000 Author Share Posted November 28, 2000 Ya got me there juardis. I *think* that BH said the procedure was that way in WW2 as well as today but I don't remember 100%. I've seen him around the forum recently so maybe he'll poke his head in here and give us the straight dirt. "Say his name and you call his spirit"??? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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