Andre76 Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 In a recent battle I had a Stug who became immobilzed (due to terrain)in a hopeless position. They had NO chance of play a part in the batttle and was sitting targets. Well, in the next round they were targeted and killed. I felt a bit sorry for the crew and wished there had been a "Abandon" command so I could have ordered them out before they got themself killed. Also, what about "abandond" vehicles, should't the crew being able to go back and man the vehicle again? It's irritating to have a ATgun/HT/SP that works perfectly but the crew has left. And if they come back they can't enetr it again! André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Hi there, 1. Crews bail out when they realise that they are in mortal danger, but I agree that it usually is too late by then. Can't answer that question. 2. I suggest you try and do a search, or be content with a quick answer. It did not really happen that much in reality, and 'abandoned' does not mean perfect working order, there usually is some damage that can be repaired quickly (e.g. during an operation, inbetween battles), nevertheless it renders the gun/vehicle unusable during this battle. REME would not go and repair it under fire, so that won't happen in the game. Has been discussed at length, and is explained on p.22 of the manual. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre76 Posted July 26, 2000 Author Share Posted July 26, 2000 It's not a big deal that you can't order them out. But maybe some time in the future when your crew can gain experience, you would like to protect them as much as possible. "Get the hell out of here!!" André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Visions of gamey crews bailing from their HTs to form the "1st Assault Crew Co. (Provisional)"..... ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Visions IntelWeenie?????? It is happening more and more. People are using crews as scouts / cannon fodder on a growing basis in the games I've been playing. Completely and totally gamey play crap is starting to occur. In my view, BTS needs to address this in the game. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing bailed out crews plain and simply just disappear to prevent people from abusing/using them in totally unrealistic ways. I know good and well they have no offensive capability to speak of and they die easily. But that doesn't matter a hill of beans when they are used as scouts to find mine fields, trip ambushes, or just plain and simply find out my defensive positions by waltzing forward until they get blasted by something thus giving away the defenses position. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCrawler Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 I think that instead of taking them out completely, when a crew bails it should automatically be placed under AI control. The AI should attempt to either move the crew off map, or hole up somewhere and hide, never releasing control back to the player... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntg84 Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Or just route them back to the edge of the map, to a company HQ and keep them there to re-coop. Thats the realisitic thing, a crew didn't go scout out ahead, they knew no infantry tactics and would want to get the hell out of the line of fire. Let um have a good German beer while another tank is being fixed up behind the lines. [This message has been edited by ntg84 (edited 07-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Weaver Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 I've got a good idea. Crews should still be placed under user control, but their experience level once they bail should be two levels lower than their vehicle's experience level. Regular vehicles will have Conscript crews, Veteran vehicles will have Green crews, and so on. This will allow player positioning of crews but will preclude their use in heavy combat, since they'll go to pieces the first time shots come their way. It also realistically reflects tankers' inexperience with infantry tactics. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Törni Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 The idea about AI-control sounds pretty reasonable to me. It would prevent any misuse of the pistol armed fellas. I wonder how eagerly in real life vehicle crews were ready to charge at the enemy armed only with pistols, while infantry sits on ther arses spotting gun flashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 This topic has been discussed to DEATH here.. Check out the "Gamey Recon.." thread it has some GOOD insight from Steve and Charles in it and it discussed some proposed solutions. Maybe they will be in the v1.03 patch: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/006510.html Chalres says this at one point: " posted 06-27-2000 08:17 PM Bailed crew are also "fragile" morale-wise. Notice the red exclamation mark in the lower right of their info panel. They panic quickly when fired upon, so they're not really the best scouts. Charles" I encourage all of you to visit the discusion in this thread as some very good solutions and suggestions to deal with this problme were proposed. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 07-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Mikester, I have not seen that happen in my PBEM games. The best solution is to strike these people of your PBEM list, and refuse the results of the game to be added to any ladder you are participating in. Still frustrating, but over time you are going to be so much the happier for it. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Hey Tom, Good to see you back. Don't take any of the following personally. I know it's been discussed. Only thing is little (strictly my opinion here) has been done yet to prevent gamey crap with bailed out crews. Frankly, I don't think Charles/BTS's arguement that you've noted above comes even close to solving all of the gamey issues related to bailed out crews. And if you leave the door open for people to use crews in totally unrealistic manners there are going to be any number of them that are going to be all too happy to do just that. Crews can be as fragile as all hell, damn near totally unarmed, no morale, or whatever, and they can still be sent marching into defensive positions which I'm trying to keep concealed until his real forces come up and make my units expose their positions by firing and/or just plain sight them outright. They likely will die in the process, but the bloody damn damage of giving away my positions is already done and only at the "cost" of losing the crew which any number of folks seem to not care about in the slightest. Granted, this is pretty stupid to do in an op where you might need the crew to reman a tank that gets repaired later on, but in the single battle scenarios people have been using crews in unrealistic manners since the demo and are continuing to do so now. Actually, even in an op I think this might be a problem come to think of it. As the player of the tank/vehicle that got knocked out you know whether it was just abandoned (i.e. might return to service later in the op) vs. just plain knocked out completely (i.e. not coming back at all). Given this and knowing which of your crews just bailed out of vehicles that are totally knocked out these crews could also be sent forward to their deaths in gamey BS moves since the player knows their vehicle is not ever going to return to the op later on. Sorry about all the ranting and raving guys, but I'm starting to see more and more of this occurring and I think something needs to be done about it by the game designers. They might agree and they might not. My main point is why not make it totally impractical/outright impossible for people to abuse how bailed out crews are utilized in the first place. Hopefully this might be being addressed in the soon to come ver1.03 patch. Again, sorry for going off the deep end on this one but when you start to have this gamey stuff pulled on you when you are playing a game it really ticks you off as the defender. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Just checking in again to voice my complete opposition to any VOLUNTARY exiting of vehicles by crews. I remember long ago this sort of thing was a big issue on an ASL forum (specifically, could an AFV crew abandon their AFV to occupy terrain to satisfy victory conditions). Thankfully, CM does better in the VC department than ASL (AFVs can control flags in buildings, etc.), but if crews are allowed to bail on demand, there is way too much room for "gamey" uses. This was the source of much of the opposition to it in ASL. As far as I have seen, crews are currently doing what they should when immobilized. They usually will bail if the situation is bad (like being under fire by superior forces) or otherwise just stay in the vehicle (since they are normally safer under armor and can at least try to fight back). I agree there are some issues with bailed crews, but hopefully some of them will be addressed in v1.03. Just MHO. ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Sounds like this and other gamey scouting issues are going to be addressed by BTS in the upcoming patch as indicated over in the "Gamey Recon" thread. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzlehead Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Ok here is my two cents: Madmatt and I had a similar conversation a couple days back. I asked if upcoming patches would let crews abandon vehicles that were out of ammo (ie mortar half-tracks. He explained the concerns for gamey play if crews jump out at the users leisure. I've re-thought my position and this is what poured out from my Muzzlehead: Crews should be allowed to bail if they have no way to defend themselves and continue to engage targets in the battle. The AI should decide if the crew can bail out in this situation but if it decides against it the vehicle should be required to exit the battlefield. If the crew does bail out (for any reason) then it should not be allowed to advance far from its vehicle. Perhaps a perimeter of 100 meters could be established. This would represent the crews ability to continue to hold the line but not “trash” their vehicle. If the vehicles are “abandoned” for a variety of reasons (from a busted engine block to a gaping hole in the gun carriage) a crew would not leave its equipment alone to be furthered damaged. A crew should always be allowed to “withdraw” like any unit toward friendly lines. The vehicle perimeter restriciton on a crew would effectively restrict a crew's ability to offensively advance on the battlefield. I also like the idea of crews having a lower moral rating then they had in their vehicle along with their shattered state. Later, Muzzlehead [This message has been edited by muzzlehead (edited 07-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Weaver Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Crews will bail if they feel that they can have no effect on the battle. For instance, send some empty trucks up against a tank. As soon as the truckers see the tank, many of them will jump out of their vehicles and run for cover. Smart move. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Weaver Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 I don't think gamey tactics are that big a deal. If somebody starts throwing crews or the Golden Jeep Horde or whatever at you, mention your displeasure in the email accompanying your turn. If they keep doing it, tell them you don't want to play that style of game, and end the match. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 I have had many crews bail out of immobilized vehicles, it is all a question of morale. I don't believe that it is realistic for a battalion commander to have the option of ordering a crew to bail out! "Hey corporal, run over to that tank and tell the crew to bail out!" Crews need to decide for themselves whether or not to bail out.Talk about a non-problem Gimme a break! Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted July 27, 2000 Share Posted July 27, 2000 This is it... the v1.03 patch has this "tweak" to deal with bailed crews. and I quote: "* Bailed crews now have poor visual spotting ability." I really think that's all that was needed to curb this so called "gamey" play style. So now they bail out and they can't see more than (it has been suggested here) 25-50 meters then will be both "brittle" (see the ! in there status window) and now they are mostly BLIND too. Perfect! Lets move on. -tom w ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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