Uber Sniper?

[jshandorf]

Okay... I am currently playing and PBEM game where my opponents sniper shot at a half squad of mine and killed 2 men.

Now I am all for the remote possibility of a sniper lining up two guys with one shot and popping them, but come on.....

I feel that a sniper shold be able to only kill one man at time. It was rare, if at all, that a sniper could wax two guys with one bullet in real life.

Wouldn't something like this be simple to patch in the game?

Thanks,

Jeff

[Abbott]

Firepower ratings for units are abstracted. Bolt action rifles are capable of firing several shots a minute.

[JoePrivate]

As been said elsewhere they are Sharpshooters not snipers, there is a difference. Your two guys with one 'bullet' analogy is wrong as the ammo loadout is an abstraction and doesn't represent the number of 'bullets'. What is being simulated is the actions of the sharpshooter in the one minute turn resolution where it could have fired several 'shots'.

It works as was meant to so no need for a change or patch, just your perceptions need to be adjusted.

[jshandorf]

OKay... So the shots of a sharpshooter in 60 seconds are "abstracted" while the shots of a tank in 60 seconds are not?

So, you are saying that when my guys aren't shooting they could be shooting, and that the actual grafix and simulation of the "shot" is not when the shot happens?

I'm confused.... Either the units fires or it doesn't fire.

BTS told me in another thread that a squad of men, even though there are many members, act as a single unit. They move, shoot, panic, etc together as a whole. So, I am assuming that when my squad shoots and I seeing the grafix tracer round going out that they are, at that moment, shooting. Right? Otherwise how else could you tell if they are shooting or just sitting there.

If I am right with this then a sharpshooter should act the same way. When he is shown shooting.. He is shooting. BUT he is only a single guy with a single shot weapon. Therefore he should be only able to kill one guy at a time.

His ammo supply does not need to be an abstraction, since there is no other ammo to keep track of, right? He just has his one gun and his one type of ammo therefore his ammo level should be an actual representation.

On the other hand... If you want to say that when you see the actual grafic of the sharpshooter shooting that he is letting loose 2 or 3 rounds at that moment than I can see your point, BUT when does a sniper ever open up on a target like that? Usually after that first shot all the targets take cover and there are no other immediate targets. Plus a bolt action rifle just can't do what you are saying. Don't give me no Harvey Oswald "3 shots in 8.7 seconds" crud.

BTS, please help me here.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 09-05-2000).]

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

Okay... I am currently playing and PBEM game where my opponents sniper shot at a half squad of mine and killed 2 men.

Now I am all for the remote possibility of a sniper lining up two guys with one shot and popping them, but come on.....

Thanks,

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was he using an Italian Carcano carbine from a book depository? Have you checked for other (hidden) snipers on nearby grassy knolls?

------------------

Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[JoePrivate]

I remember reading, not sure where now, of a British Rifleman in WWI who fired 35 shots(IIRC) into the bullseye of a target at 600yds in one minute. That was using a Lee-Enfield. It seemed so out there that it always stuck in my mind, the more knowledgeable can correct me on the particulars if I am mistaken.

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate:

I remember reading, not sure where now, of a British Rifleman in WWI who fired 35 shots(IIRC) into the bullseye of a target at 600yds in one minute. That was using a Lee-Enfield. It seemed so out there that it always stuck in my mind, the more knowledgeable can correct me on the particulars if I am mistaken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe he killed Kennedy?

Jeff

[JoePrivate]

Who's Kennedy?

[Jeff Heidman]

I think there is some confusion here, mainly because of the way your question was answered in the first place.

The ammo load out for any infantry (small arms) unit (including sharpshooters) is abstracted as a certain number of "shots". A single "shot" does not represent a single round. For example, a MG42 might have 50 "shots" of ammo. Certainly that represents a lot more than 50 actual rounds!

So each time you see the sharpshooter fire his weapon, he might be firing one or more actual rounds, you do not really know. Ignore the remarks about 60 seconds, they are incorrect. If a sniper fires 3 "shots" in a minute (unlikely), that could represent anywhere from 3-?? actual rounds fired.

So, in other words, a sharpshooter killing mroe than one person with a shot is not impossible, even if it might be unlikely. It certainly does NOT mean they got two guys with one bullet.

Jeff Heidman

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

On the other hand... If you want to say that when you see the actual grafic of the sharpshooter shooting that he is letting loose 2 or 3 rounds at that moment than I can see your point, BUT when does a sniper ever open up on a target like that? Usually after that first shot all the targets take cover and there are no other immediate targets. Plus a bolt action rifle just can't do what you are saying. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, you have to realize that this is all abstracted. Whether or not you like it, and whether or not it's perfectly realistic, ammo points don't correspond to an equal number of small arms bullets. That sharpshooter isn't shooting one bullet at a time, he's shooting one ammo point at a time, which may represent more than one bullet.

Second, CM's sharpshooters aren't snipers in the sense of the word I believe you're thinking. They're not the "one-shot-to-the-head-from-a-mile-out" guys. As for the squads taking cover, this, again, is abstracted. CM doesn't represent cover as "okay, every guy's behind a rock now, so no one can see them" but as "this squad is more or less in cover to some degree."

It seems to me that to change any of this would require a pretty huge overhaul of the CM engine. I'm not a programmer, so I won't stake my life to it, but...there it is.

------------------

Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate:

Who's Kennedy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John F. Kennedy.

I pray you are not an American, but if you are our public schools have failed you. You have my condolences.

Jeff

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate:

Who's Kennedy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She was this irritating VJ on MTV.

Jeff Heidman

P.S. -> Yes, it is a slow day at work...

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

I think there is some confusion here, mainly because of the way your question was answered in the first place.

The ammo load out for any infantry (small arms) unit (including sharpshooters) is abstracted as a certain number of "shots". A single "shot" does not represent a single round. For example, a MG42 might have 50 "shots" of ammo. Certainly that represents a lot more than 50 actual rounds!

So each time you see the sharpshooter fire his weapon, he might be firing one or more actual rounds, you do not really know. Ignore the remarks about 60 seconds, they are incorrect. If a sniper fires 3 "shots" in a minute (unlikely), that could represent anywhere from 3-?? actual rounds fired.

So, in other words, a sharpshooter killing mroe than one person with a shot is not impossible, even if it might be unlikely. It certainly does NOT mean they got two guys with one bullet.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that, but my point is is that a sniper unit doesn't have to be abstracted. There is one man with one type of gun, and there is only one type of ammo and one type of ammo load.

Therefore why not model the unit in a way that makes this clear? They did this with the Arty spotters. Tanks are modeled in this way. Just apply the same modeling to the sharpshooter.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Theron]

I suspect, the sniper has the same ammo indication as all other small arms infantry becuse of programming constraints. Not because of how hard it would be to keep track of his ammo. If they are using object oriented programming the sniper could be an "infantry" object and have simlar constraints as other infantry. They changed the artillery, because of spotting rounds not counting against the total count of ammo. This was only a problem with large pieces such as the off shore naval guns, but they changed it with all the off board artillery. I would guess that this was for consistency and because all off board artillery are coded as a "artillery" object. Since the current method for keeping track of infantry ammo will stay the same I don't think that the sniper/sharp shooter will get to count individual rounds.

I also beleive that the trajectories of individual small fire rounds are not calculated, they are calcuated for tanks and artillery. Therefore BTS would have to work out a special case just for the sniper. Is there a particular advantage that you can see to allowing us to know exactly how many rounds a sniper has? Some people have argued that we already have too much control over snipers.

Theron

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

I understand that, but my point is is that a sniper unit doesn't have to be abstracted. There is one man with one type of gun, and there is only one type of ammo and one type of ammo load.

Therefore why not model the unit in a way that makes this clear? They did this with the Arty spotters. Tanks are modeled in this way. Just apply the same modeling to the sharpshooter.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 09-05-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The short answer is that a sharpshooter is NOT a tank or artillery spotter!

The long answer wqould be that you are not taking into account what you are asking for.

Right now, when infantry unit A fires small arms at infantry unit B, there is an abstract firepower number being fired at an abstract target, namely the entire squad. You want a precise weapon to be fired at an abstract target. While that works with weapons like tanks and artillery (since there is no problem with a HE round killing >1 squad member) it would NOT work with a sniper.

I seriously doubt that casualties are determined in the manner you think that they are (or should be).

Finally, it comes down to: why bother? What is the difference between seeing a sniper fire once and kill two people and seeing that same sniper fire twice as fast and kill two people with two shots?

Jeff Heidman

[JoePrivate]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>jshandorf wrote:

I pray you are not an American, but if you are our public schools have failed you. You have my condolences.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, no I'm not an American and yes I know who Kennedy was. I was simply trying to point out(hopefully in a helpful manner) what CM does/is and the fallacy of trying to relate what you think or know of 'reality' to the game.

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Finally, it comes down to: why bother? What is the difference between seeing a sniper fire once and kill two people and seeing that same sniper fire twice as fast and kill two people with two shots?

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it would matter if the unit that the sniper is firing at goes from open ground to say Tall pines. The second shot would have less of a chance of hitting.

I can understnad all the abstraction that is done for squads since there are multiple members, multiple weapons, multiple ROFs, etc... That is no problem.

But the sniper unit is one guy. Period. Think 'bout it. Look at the AT teams. Are they using the same params (object) as the infantry units? No. Their ammo supply, type, ROF is modeled correctly. A panzerschreck team doesn't fire 2 rockets when you see one rocket go out. Why can't the sniper be modeled the same way?

I guess what I am saying is that the sniper, okay don't laugh, is too powerful for the way it is modeled. Hell, I think it would be interesting to just buy a boat load of snipers and use them for the defense of an infantry assault. I think it would be an interesting test. I might try it when I get home tonight.

A sniper cannot burst fire his weapon but then how can he kill two men in 1 second? It just doesn't work. But a soldier with a Semi-auto rifle can fire 3-4 rounds in 1 second and therefore it works. But snipers use bolt-actions, atleast that is how they are described in the game, and therefore it is impossible for them to kill multiple units with one shot.

The whole thing about seeing the "tracer" shot from an infantry unit as an abstraction of them firing is confusing at best. So you mean to tell me that that when a squad is targeting another squad that they are firing when I don't see them firing and that the "tracer" grafix is only shown at intervals during this firing? Huh?

I think that when you see a squad fire, it is firing. Period. And when it is not firing it is not firing. Period. There is no abstraction inbetween.

If anything then the FP of a sniper should be lowered so that he can ONLY kill one man with each shot fired. I don't think it is unreasonable in any way. You don't use snipers to take out entire squads and if you are trying to then you are wasting your snipers.

Jeff

[Theron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

I can understnad all the abstraction that is done for squads since there are multiple members, multiple weapons, multiple ROFs, etc... That is no problem.

But the sniper unit is one guy. Period. Think 'bout it. Look at the AT teams. Are they using the same params (object) as the infantry units? No. Their ammo supply, type, ROF is modeled correctly. A panzerschreck team doesn't fire 2 rockets when you see one rocket go out. Why can't the sniper be modeled the same way?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AT teams shoot "rockets" and the sniper shoots small rounds fire. Therefore the type of fire for the two is very different. The rockets can be modeled like tank projectiles, but CM doesn't model individual rounds from machine guns/rifles/pistols hitting units. The fact of the matter is I have no idea how BTS programed snipers. I was giving this as a possible explanation as to why they are the same as other infantry units.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The whole thing about seeing the "tracer" shot from an infantry unit as an abstraction of them firing is confusing at best. So you mean to tell me that that when a squad is targeting another squad that they are firing when I don't see them firing and that the "tracer" grafix is only shown at intervals during this firing? Huh?

I think that when you see a squad fire, it is firing. Period. And when it is not firing it is not firing. Period. There is no abstraction inbetween.

If anything then the FP of a sniper should be lowered so that he can ONLY kill one man with each shot fired. I don't think it is unreasonable in any way. You don't use snipers to take out entire squads and if you are trying to then you are wasting your snipers.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The abstraction isn't wether the sniper/squad is or is not firing. It is where are all those bullets going when the unit is firing. CM has a method of figuring out the chances of a hit based on fire power, exposure, etc. It doesn't decide a hit based on each bullet fired. Therefore unless a special new small arms trajectory model is calculated the sniper's shots will be like all other units.

I guess a side effect of this is that snipers can fire multiple shots. You should note that the ammo count that a sniper carries is a lot less than the potential number of rounds a real sniper could carry.

Theron

[IntelWeenie]

jshandorf, what you seem to be proposing is really nothing less than a revamp of the entire infantry fire model. Yes, once in a while it will produce what seems to be odd results (1 'shot'=2 casualties), but how rare is such an occurence? Besides, casualtes themselves are abstracted in CM. One casualty. Hmm, is he dead, wounded, or "shell shocked"? Might a "2 casualty" result be interpreted as one killed and the other soldier freaked out because his buddy's brains are slattered all over his face? Such a result as this is perfect for a WWII sniper/sharpshooter. Terror and uncertainty are as much their craft as taking out individuals.

WRT the comparisons to AT teams, etc., I think you are not following Jeff's point about "infantry units". Yes, they are all infantry units. But they differ in their type of weapon. AT teams have AT weapons. FOs have OBA. Sniper/sharpshooters, though, have a rifle, which falls into the 'infantry weapon' category and therefore calculated as a FP rating. The FP rating applies to all HE projectiles, too. It's just the way CM is set up to resolve fire vs. infantry. Your fix would require sniper/sharpshooter weapons to be in a class by their own to track the ammo, but would still be resolved as a FP rating.

I do see your point, BTW. I just think it would be one of those great cost for little gain issues.

------------------

Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[The Commissar]

Soldier #1 - Hey Bubba, mind I stay 'hind you so if dem' kraut snipers start a-shootin us I dona get hit?

Soldier #2 - George, that's jus' plain unfair! Why should I git hit and you ain't any worser from it?

::cue bullet going through Bubba's chest and stops in George's belly::

Have a little imagination jshandorf, it could happen!

------------------

"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 09-05-2000).]

[PvK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

A sniper cannot burst fire his weapon but then how can he kill two men in 1 second? It just doesn't work. But a soldier with a Semi-auto rifle can fire 3-4 rounds in 1 second and therefore it works. But snipers use bolt-actions, atleast that is how they are described in the game, and therefore it is impossible for them to kill multiple units with one shot.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the one shot represents one or more shots, spread out over more than one second. Similarly, squads represent several men spread out over more ground than is shown. A real infantry squad would tend to deploy quite spread out so they can't all be killed at once by automatic fire or explosions. They would also move in stages, one or two men at a time. So even if a unit moves across an open space to cover in less time than a sniper can attack twice in the game, it probably represents enough firing opportunities on multiple targets to reload and hit two or three guys. I'd say that because of this, it actually makes more sense to abstract fire the way it's done in CM, with each attack likely representing several shots, spread out over time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The whole thing about seeing the "tracer" shot from an infantry unit as an abstraction of them firing is confusing at best. So you mean to tell me that that when a squad is targeting another squad that they are firing when I don't see them firing and that the "tracer" grafix is only shown at intervals during this firing? Huh?

I think that when you see a squad fire, it is firing. Period. And when it is not firing it is not firing. Period. There is no abstraction inbetween.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of us is confused, then, and I'm pretty sure it's you. To me, it seems obvious that the troops are firing even when they're not shown to. A WW2 squad didn't generally coordinate its fire into volleys, with pauses where the whole unit wouldn't fire. It seems clear to me that each shot of small arms means the unit is firing at that point, and for some time thereafter. It's just abstracted into volumes of fire, but it's not supposed to mean the men are actually firing in volleys between pauses.

PvK

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Theron:

The abstraction isn't wether the sniper/squad is or is not firing. It is where are all those bullets going when the unit is firing. CM has a method of figuring out the chances of a hit based on fire power, exposure, etc. It doesn't decide a hit based on each bullet fired. Therefore unless a special new small arms trajectory model is calculated the sniper's shots will be like all other units.

I guess a side effect of this is that snipers can fire multiple shots. You should note that the ammo count that a sniper carries is a lot less than the potential number of rounds a real sniper could carry.

Theron <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AAAArgh. When I say "model" snipers like AT teams I don't mean to model each "bullet" fired. I am talking about the params of that unit, i.e. Ammo, Ammo load, ROF, etc.

I know that the bullets from the infantry and such are not modeled "exactly" in the game.

Basically then it comes down to the fact that with the current modeling of infantry a sniper unit with ONE rifle can kill more then ONE man when it shoots. Doesn't anybody see how wierd this is? Therefore a sniper targeting an unbuttoned tank should be able to kill the TC AND the driver with one "shot". But we all know that can't happen in the game so why should it happen to infantry units?

In a section of the code where it calculates the damage to a specific target can't there just be an IF statement that says:

if (attacking_unit = "Sharpshooter")

Current_Casualties += 1

else

Current_Casualties += Casualties

Not that I am assuming I know how they coded it but there HAS to be a way to make the sniper more realistic. Right now I feel it is TOO powerful.

I am going to run a little test tonight on snipers and I will get back to you all on it.

Jeff

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PvK:

One of us is confused, then, and I'm pretty sure it's you. To me, it seems obvious that the troops are firing even when they're not shown to. A WW2 squad didn't generally coordinate its fire into volleys, with pauses where the whole unit wouldn't fire. It seems clear to me that each shot of small arms means the unit is firing at that point, and for some time thereafter. It's just abstracted into volumes of fire, but it's not supposed to mean the men are actually firing in volleys between pauses.

PvK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I think you are confused. I think you imagine them continuing to fire after you see the tracer round on the screen, but I think I am right in saying that in the game itself, the guts, the engine, that a unit is considered to be "firing" when that little tracer rounds goes out. And it is only at that time damage is done to the target unit. Have you ever seen an infantry squad take casualties when NO tracer round hits them? I think not.

Therefore the tracer round that is emmitted from that unit IS the unit firing, as far as the games engine is concerned.

Jeff

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

AAAArgh. When I say "model" snipers like AT teams I don't mean to model each "bullet" fired. I am talking about the params of that unit, i.e. Ammo, Ammo load, ROF, etc.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, Jeff, you're saying you don't want to model each bullet, but list ammo as one of the parameters to be changed? Changed to what?

To me, it still boils down to every form of fire vs. infantry is calculated as a FP rating. When shooting (any small arms/HE) at unbuttoned tanks, I have never seen 2 crewmen casualties. I suspect that it's because CM takes any casualty result vs. crew as "1 casualty" to keep it simple, since individual crewmen are not modeled (within the vehicle).

I don't think it weird at all that a well-trained and proficient sniper could cause two casualties with only a few rounds. Or, in CM terms, one 'shot'. You seem to be considering snipers as different from other infantry when, in fact, they are not different in CM.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Therefore the tracer round that is emmitted from that unit IS the unit firing, as far as the games engine is concerned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK, true, but it is an abstraction meant to represent several seconds worth of firing. (Are we splitting hairs, or what? )

------------------

Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[This message has been edited by IntelWeenie (edited 09-05-2000).]

[JoePrivate]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>jshandorf wrote:

AAAArgh. When I say "model" snipers like AT teams I don't mean to model each "bullet" fired. I am talking about the params of that unit, i.e. Ammo, Ammo load, ROF, etc.

I know that the bullets from the infantry and such are not modeled "exactly" in the game.

Basically then it comes down to the fact that with the current modeling of infantry a sniper unit with ONE rifle can kill more then ONE man when it shoots. Doesn't anybody see how wierd this is?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

"I don't mean to model each "bullet" fired.....ONE rifle can kill more then ONE man when it shoots...how wierd this is?"

I think BTS specifically called these units 'Sharpshooters' and not 'Snipers' so the associated mindset of one shot/one kill for snipers wouldn't be applied to them. As has been stated before the firing and ammo is abstracted as is the graphical representation. You seem to want or expect a more detailed model hence the confusion.

IMO these units aren't too powerful at all. They can pick off a few TCs or weapon crewmen if given the right conditions but once spotted they can't stand up to any fire like a squad can.