PeterNZer Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 hey there you lot. talking with boss here at work (datamonitor) about some stuff and we don't think there's much of a PC game market in Iran or Saudi Arabia, (sales and stuff in country). Anyone else agree? Disagree? We also thing Israel would be the only significant market there, what do you lot think? Totally off topic I know, some comments would be appreciated tho PeterNZ ------------------ "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George W Bush -Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Dunno about Saudi, but I can't imagine there being one in Iran. "Hahaha! I fragged your ass good, Great Satan!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 I was doing game industry research a three years back and the middle east is hardly tracked at all. The reason (IMHO) is the lack of a middle class. There are country differences, of course. Israel is a first world country in the middle of the third world. Turkey has a big middle class as does Egypt. However, the other countries have either really rich people and a lot of very poor people. Some of the countries have good education and a great many don't. Remember that game software only takes hold after business software is taken up. [This message has been edited by Disaster@work (edited 11-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Ok, so I spoke a little too soon. I did some digging and found out that, like the rest of the world, sales of PCs in the middle east grew in the past few years. Sales of PCs apparently are expected to top 1,000,000 this year in the region. http://arabia.com/article/1,1690,Business|22926,00.html Of what percentage would use it for gaming? I don't know. A market that is probably fairly viable is PC-based military simulations for third world armies. These institutions lack the budget for high end teaching and simulation systems and the technical knowhow to maintain them. However, anyone with a few months of education can maintain a PC network and a software system. Third world armies are dreadfully behind first world armies in training and doctrine. Just having something like Tacops would lead to great improvement among the middle officer ranks. That said, it would require a more forward looking and stable leadership to sponsor even that simple an addition to officer schooling. In Africa? Forget it. Middle Eastern military institutions are more apt to send their staff overseas for training with country sponsors. Regardless of the awful news from Israel every week, the middle east is actually more stable than many other regions and the officer corps are more likely to stay in ranks for a length of time and would benefit from such training. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 I beg to differ I live in the Middle East and you do have a large middle class (especially "Western" expats) who would and are interested in Wargames. As for the Arabs/Muslims of the area. There is some limited interest. For CM if it were to expand into say the 48, 56, 67, 73 wars between Isreal and the Arabs there would be a GREAT interest. As would the Pakistani vs Indian conflicts (Many of these used WWII equipment and there follow ons), the Indian/Pakistani Market would be/is huge and their paying capacity is increasing. Why don't they buy? Most wargames(CM included) are very Western oriented, and directed at US/Europeans they not marketed in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu or any other Middle Eastern/Muslim language. Should CM create (with the Med CM 3 you'd have the desert terrain and the possibility of recreating a number of the actions of interest to Middle Easters. A story: while teaching business in Saudi Arabia It became obvious to me that more than 25% of the college students had no idea that anything called "WWII" had ever occurred! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Again a little off-topic, but I just thought of a great name for CM3...CM3:Battle for the Med. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted November 23, 2000 Author Share Posted November 23, 2000 I guess i'm looking at a comparison here. While there may be games sales I'd say that neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia has a bigger games market than Israel. Censorship would be one issues, lack of PC access and internet access another, and cost of course. Anyone care to comment? Just kinda, having a private laugh at the competition PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hans: I beg to differ ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I bow to your personal experience, of course. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I live in the Middle East and you do have a large middle class (especially "Western" expats) who would and are interested in Wargames. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know there are large expat communities and would expect them all to be PC users and have net access but are they a viable market in size and purchasing behaviour? Are there many computer or software stores where they can buy legitimate software or do they bring them from trips back from Europe / Asia / N. America? I am interested to know. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> As for the Arabs/Muslims of the area. There is some limited interest. For CM if it were to expand into say the 48, 56, 67, 73 wars between Isreal and the Arabs there would be a GREAT interest. As would the Pakistani vs Indian conflicts (Many of these used WWII equipment and there follow ons), the Indian/Pakistani Market would be/is huge and their paying capacity is increasing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wouldn't have considered India / Pakistan to be part of the middle east and certainly even just counting the Indian market I know they are certainly worth addressing. Although the percentage of India who are middle class is low, the size of it is huge. There is very much a case for a muslim-oriented software market. In fact, three years ago I made a business case for setting up a game development / publishing business in Malaysia for that purpose. Part of the challenge was considering a new market (muslims / Indians / non-Chinese or Japanese Asians) for games. While we thought there was a viable market for games with themes that appeals to these groups, we were a bit dismayed at the lack of business support for such a business at the time (distributorship, funding, piracy control). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why don't they buy? Most wargames(CM included) are very Western oriented, and directed at US/Europeans they not marketed in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu or any other Middle Eastern/Muslim language. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I support this statement. In this area, Microsoft is very much ahead of others in penetrating new language markets. However, localizing is very expensive for smaller developers and publishers. By the way, it took me more than one trip to the east to really understand the older generation's fear of new media. Some of the business types I spoke with were leery of another western-centric media taking over the minds of the young. When you couple that with a powerful religious authority in many of these countries, it is a somewhat risky proposition for small developers. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Should CM create (with the Med CM 3 you'd have the desert terrain and the possibility of recreating a number of the actions of interest to Middle Easters. A story: while teaching business in Saudi Arabia It became obvious to me that more than 25% of the college students had no idea that anything called "WWII" had ever occurred!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This last anecdote does not surprise me at all. One business person asked me seriously if I would be teaching Christian or Jewish values in my games. I told him that I would stay away from that issue and be neutral. Later I was taken to a club in which several young people wore nazi garb as part of a theme party. They were all Asians (I am too). It was clear that they didn't really understand what this would mean to other people. But we in the west do the same all the time and never have reason to question what we put out. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Wargames in Isreal would be a bit redundant. Why play at war on a computer when all you have to do is step outside your front door and experience the real thing. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Sad but true. But I would hazard that militarized societies are also consumers of military entertainment (when they are not actually fighting, that is). The U.S. for one. I had a friend from China tell me that all her male students were intense 'war geeks'. One of my uncles who was a major sat down entranced with Panzer Elite and promptly bought a PC just to consume games like that. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 You're probably right. Some of the most intense wargamers are people in the military. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 I know there are large expat communities and would expect them all to be PC users and have net access but are they a viable market in size and purchasing behaviour? Hans: Equal to a large city, most are professionals and above average computer skills. The big market is with the Arab Middle class and also the non-European Middle class (non-Arab) that is also arising Are there many computer or software stores where they can buy legitimate software or do they bring them from trips back from Europe / Asia / N. America? I am interested to know. Hans: Yes, but they tend to be several months behind. I must admit I order things in the US to be shipped here. Piracy IS a problem but much less now than in the past. I wouldn't have considered India / Pakistan to be part of the middle east and certainly even just counting the Indian market I know they are certainly worth addressing. Although the percentage of India who are middle class is low, the size of it is huge. There is very much a case for a muslim-oriented software market. In fact, three years ago I made a business case for setting up a game development / publishing business in Malaysia for that purpose. Part of the challenge was considering a new market (muslims / Indians / non-Chinese or Japanese Asians) for games. While we thought there was a viable market for games with themes that appeals to these groups, we were a bit dismayed at the lack of business support for such a business at the time (distributorship, funding, piracy control). Hans: I would suggest that a CM type came directed at the Indian Middle Class recreating Chinese and Pakistani battles - and future ones would be very successful. Software creation is one area where the Indians excel (in having them "Indianize" existing software to Urdu, Hindi, Tamil etc) by the way, it took me more than one trip to the east to really understand the older generation's fear of new media. Some of the business types I spoke with were leery of another western-centric media taking over the minds of the young. When you couple that with a powerful religious authority in many of these countries, it is a somewhat risky proposition for small developers. Hans: Definitely a problem however in the UAE they are attacking it directly by setting up a special development corporation to deal with it (Dubai Internet City) This last anecdote does not surprise me at all. One business person asked me seriously if I would be teaching Christian or Jewish values in my games. I told him that I would stay away from that issue and be neutral. Hans: This is a common Muslim/Arab "conspiracy" type fear. I do believe that a CM type wargame with Isrealis as the enemy (plus the French and Brits in 56) would be popular especially if the training advantage of the Isreal was "neutralized". One of the gentlemen I work with was a Syrian T-72 driver in the 73 war and he loves the effect of CM but is too computerphobic to actually play…but his sons aren't! Not to mention the other conflicts in the area, the war in Yemen the Brits vs the Communists in Oman etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nijis Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 Egypt's got a pretty big market for games, mostly of the Command and Conquer/RTS genres but I've also seen quite a few more serious simulations for sale here, everything from flight sims to TOAW. I'm not sure how well they sell. Folks at the office enjoy playing the Mac F-18 sim, and don't seem to mind they're shooting at Iraqis. In Egypt, where we've got a comparatively big middle class, I'm guessing you could expect a market of a potentially a few hundred thousand over the next few years. If anyone wants more exact figures email me and I'll contact some folks who might have them. Egypt is obsessed with its war record, but for the most part not in a critical way. It's still a military dictatorship, and the boys in charge are reluctant to allow their wisdom be questioned. The regime's willing to concede that it lost 48 and 67, but insist it's won a victory in 73 and to a lesser extent, 56. For patriotic reasons, most of the press goes along with this. I find it very difficult to talk military history with under-30s, mostly because they have no idea what happened after the first few days of the Suez Canal. Even very educated, skeptical people don't realize that Egypt took higher losses on the Suez front than the Israelis, for example. This is changing -- the Qatari satellite channel Al Jazeera and other non-Egyptian Arabic media have begun to discuss military history more critically over the past few years. Some of the commanders -- Shazly and Gamasy, for you '73 grogs -- still give interviews and are willing to say unorthodox things. On the other hand, I'd dearly love to see a good game on the 1973 war. TOAW was great but it didn't have mass appeal. At the very least, it would get it through to folks that war's not just a matter of running up a sand embankment, gunning down a few Zionists, and planting the Egyptian flag, as a shockingly high proportion of people seem to think. ------------------ "I can't listen to music too often... It makes me want to say kind, stupid things, and pat the heads of people... But now you have to beat them on the head, beat them without mercy." V. I. Lenin [This message has been edited by nijis (edited 11-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 Well that's interesting, I wrote a long reply to this and it disappeared??? PeterNZ if you'd like the answers to your questions email me at Wayne.Rutledge@hct.ac.ae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 I was in turkey last summer, and internet cafes are everywhere. And some of them run networked games at times. One in particular was a Halflife cafe by day and an internet cafe by night. Note that no one over 17 played any games (or went to the cafe for that matter). Also, our guide played games at home (some computer, mainly N64). WWB WWB ------------------ Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram Sedai Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 Does New Jersey count? Its on the mid East Coast ------------------ An another thing...Ah've go' ten gams on at the moment, boot Ah've sain more mooves out o' a geriatric Japanese peasant lassie! If'n mah opponent's nae climbin' Ben Everest, they're gaddin' aboot some tank museum in Moscow! Yoo that are laift, send mae a bloody turrrn, ye cowerring swine! - OGSF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: Does New Jersey count? Its on the mid East Coast <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Does Jersey Count for anything? If it hadn't been for Springsteen I'd say definitely not. I'd like to get rid of it and thereby putmyself 2 hours closer to the beach...oh, I'm sorry, that's a foreign word to you. That would be 2 hours closer to the shore. ------------------ "THAT DUCK SHALL NOT HAVE DIED IN VAIN!" - Senachai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram Sedai Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: Does Jersey Count for anything? If it hadn't been for Springsteen I'd say definitely not. I'd like to get rid of it and thereby putmyself 2 hours closer to the beach...oh, I'm sorry, that's a foreign word to you. That would be 2 hours closer to the shore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's it!! Back to the pool for you Mr. Where did I put my loofah? ------------------ An another thing...Ah've go' ten gams on at the moment, boot Ah've sain more mooves out o' a geriatric Japanese peasant lassie! If'n mah opponent's nae climbin' Ben Everest, they're gaddin' aboot some tank museum in Moscow! Yoo that are laift, send mae a bloody turrrn, ye cowerring swine! - OGSF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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