Tank Destroyer targetting problem

[PvK]

If this has been covered, let me know where the thread is.

I was just playing with a JagdTiger (what a blast!), and noticed something that seemed like a problem. Namely, on four separate occasions, the JagdTiger seemed to refuse to turn to face targets I ordered it to attack, prefering instead to sit in place and engage no one.

The targets were fairly low-priority, (a half-track, some infantry, or in one case, an area target next to a halftrack that had ducked behind a house). There was nothing better to target to the front, however, and it seemed to me there were no particularly dangerous units out of view to the front that might be an excuse to stay facing forward. In each case, the JagdTiger did have orders to move after a delay - I wanted it to turn to fire, get off a shot or two, and then reverse away a bit to a new position.

Also, on a hunt order, the JagdTiger had its choice of two halftracks and an MG jeep at pretty close range and in forward arc, but it didn't bother to engage any of them. It was unbuttoned and was the only unit nearby, so it was surely aware of them.

The main problem was the unwillingness to turn to target. I suppose it would've worked to give a rotate order too, but since rotate orders can only exist at the end of a move order sequence, that would mean I had to either target for the whole turn, or be able to turn and move. I guess I could to do a short Hunt forward in the target's direction, combined with a target order. But that too would be unsatisfactory, because then there would be no way to get a Pause in between the order to face the right direction, and the move away. Compared to a turretted AFV, this is a large disadvantage in terms of possible orders.

PvK

[Time]

I noticed when I was playing Le Lorey Barkman had a sherman siting about 30m infront of him firing at him and he ignored it for about 15 seconds. I guess he was trying to see how pissed off I could get.

[patboivin]

Doesn't the JagdPanzer VI have a crew of 7 or 9 people?

That's a committee! Decisions take time in committees, no one can be accountable, it has to be a consensus....

[curih]

You said you ordered it to pause, then move? Well there's your problem. It won't do much of anything during a pause order.

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by curih:

You said you ordered it to pause, then move? Well there's your problem. It won't do much of anything during a pause order.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Start with a hunt order in the direction of the target-- it will turn, engage, and then eventually execute the reverse order. Using a shorter hunt order will reduce the delay before reversing.

[patboivin]

Pause only affects movement, doesn't it?

The JagdTiger should have shot at things if they were within the front arc of fire.

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patboivin:

Pause only affects movement, doesn't it?

The JagdTiger should have shot at things if they were within the front arc of fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It often seems to affect firing, too.

[Bruno Weiss]

Not exactly. Section 23.07(, Union rules, "when management provides a pause, all members may take coffee break".

Actually, I'm still trying to figure out why ever time I tell a unit to move, even "fast", they pause at least 13 seconds. Government workers, whatdaya expect...

------------------

"Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben"

Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf")

Bruno "Stachel" Weiss

[JoePrivate]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In each case, the JagdTiger did have orders to move after a delay - I wanted it to turn to fire, get off a shot or two, and then reverse away a bit to a new position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This issue was brought up before and the answer given was when you give an AFV a pause order it stops all hull rotation during the delay. It isn't a problem with a tank as the turret can turn but obviously that isn't possible with an assault gun so it ends up sitting there doing nothing. It will fire however if the hull is pointed in the right direction initially.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Also keep in mind that AFVs have spotting delays depending on experience and if they are buttoned up. ESPECIALLY if they are buttoned up. This is to simulate internal communications (general) and reduced vision (buttoned up). Depending on battlefield circumstances and the unit in question, this can add up to a decent number of seconds.

Steve

[gezeder]

I had something which i feel is similar with a Wasp before - i wanted it to flame a building, then move on to another position, so i told it to target the building, gave the wasp 3 pause orders, and a move order.

unfortunatly, during the turn, it refused to face the building, hence not shooting, then, it (of course) utilised it's move order correctly, and at the end, was too far away from the building to shoot!

how infuriating....

[gezeder]

oops! i posted a negative thing about Combat Mission, and forgot my obligitory Combat Mission is the best game ever comment!

Please don't hurt me.....

Combat Mission is the Best Wargame.

[ASL Veteran]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate:

This issue was brought up before and the answer given was when you give an AFV a pause order it stops all hull rotation during the delay. It isn't a problem with a tank as the turret can turn but obviously that isn't possible with an assault gun so it ends up sitting there doing nothing. It will fire however if the hull is pointed in the right direction initially.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually that isn't entirely true. I had a Stug IV set to area fire at a target 500+ meters away but which was directly to its front. Stug was CE at the time and it still did nothing during the pause before moving off to the new location (yet keeping the area target line the whole time). Bottom line - don't use the pause command with an SP gun.

[Slapdragon]

I call the strange pauses, caused by the internal delay in kicking each other, dumb tank syndrome. I had a Vet Sherman 75 pop out behind 2 Panthers on a hunt move. The Panthers were able to turn 90 degrees to face the Sherman and both fired (cooking the Sherman and then cooking the wreck) before the Sherman was able even turn his turret.

My bet is that sometimes, when given two targets equally tempting, and they start turning out of order, the AI flips from target to target and chooses none, or that the Sherman crew failed some sort of morale check while the Panthers passed.

[PvK]

(long post)

It seems to me that the main issue here is that turretless AFV's are at an additional disadvantage compared to turreted one (in addition to the realistically-modeled disadvantages), because of the way the game allows turreted vs. non-turreted vehicles to respond to orders.

That is, with a tank, I can target a unit or area target in any direction during the orders phase, and the tank _turret_ will respond immediately, attacking right away. The _hull_ behaves differently, and non-turreted AFV's depend on rotating the hull to attack except to the front. This results in non-turreted AFV's being unable to turn and attack immediately, unless a rotate order is given, and rotate orders don't allow movement orders after them. A very short hunt order combined with a target order can be followed by move orders, so this could work, but it doesn't allows for customizing the amount of delay before moving off, as can be done with a turreted AFV.

I'll have to re-try my JagdTiger scenario (muahahaha) and use this last technique to see how effective it is. Assuming it works well, this will still be a problem for players who haven't figured out this trick will often watch their turretless AFV's sit and not attack enemies to the sides. Even for those who figure out how to do it, it'll still mean turreted AFV's have a disadvantage in orders flexibility, and unless they had an appropriate order left over from the previous turn, they'll still be at an additional command delay to target enemies not in front of them, compared to turreted AFV's. There's also the problem that rotate and hunt orders aren't linked to targets the way a target order is, so an AFV given such orders will turn the hull to follow orders, not to follow a moving or changing target.

I.e., it makes no sense that if two enemy AFV's end up aware of each other at the end of a turn, but facing the wrong way to engage, that the one without a turret will have to either wait for an additional command delay to turn and attack (hunt order), or not be able to have movement orders following turning to fight (rotate order). Also in either case, if the target moves or hides or another target appears, with either rotate or hunt, the turretless AFV will tend to rotate to follow orders, not to respond to target locations, the way a turret will.

Various possible solutions:

1) Tweak the TacAI so turretless AFV's will immeditately turn to face targets out of arc. Also make sure the TacAI only gives turretless AFV's new targets out-of-firing-arc for sufficently threatenning enemies, and when there isn't an equally-suitable/dangerous target already engaged to the front. This way, the player would see them respond to orders as expected and like turretted AFV's.

2) Allow rotate orders at any waypoint, including the starting point. This would be useful in general, but would have the problem that if the target moves or changes, the turretless AFV would still turn to face the original target direction, unlike a tank which will turn the turret.

I suggest 1) as the only way I've thought of that would not additionally penalize turretless AFV's.

PvK

[PvK]

P.S.:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Also keep in mind that AFVs have spotting delays depending on experience and if they are buttoned up. ESPECIALLY if they are buttoned up. This is to simulate internal communications (general) and reduced vision (buttoned up). Depending on battlefield circumstances and the unit in question, this can add up to a decent number of seconds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is super, and I'm all in favor of this delay. In fact, I'd be happy to see this delay increased, as sometimes it seems like AFV's respond immediately to new targets, without an internal comms delay. However, the issue at hand is the difference a turret makes based on the orders system and TacAI (see preceding long message).