Wazron Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 I noticed that tank turrets in CM have a tendency to automatically align themselves along the axis of advance. This has led to some disappointing moments in my game as my panzers watch enemy armour move off to a flanking position, out of sight, and the turret (rather than tracking the likely movements of a serious threat) moves to AoA. Then the enemy armour pounces but by the time the turret traverses it's too late. Brew up. Will the tank commanders in CM2 remain interested in targets that are known to be in the FEBA but can't be seen? Or will I continue to lose tanks/have to modify tactics to account for the fact that the TCs in CM have the attention span of a goldfish and the situational awareness of tinned tuna? Wazron "Armoured Corps cooks come in tin cans" -graffiti on table at Singleton Army Ranges, NSW, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 This has been tweaked numerous times, IIRC. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Have tank AI fixate too much on an area it last saw tanks disappear in, and it's likely to ignore the Panther which just popped out of cover 100m in front of it. Have the turret snap back to front too quickly and people complain "how could he forget about those tanks on his flank?" Basically, the TacAI is good, but it's not smart. It can't know what your plan is, or what you consider important, so it can't make weighted decisions like "is it better to keep scanning this area or to face front?" with any degree of correctness. I find that the tank AI does much better if you give it simple instructions and a very narrow field of fire. No choices, no decisions, no mistakes. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wazron: I noticed that tank turrets in CM have a tendency to automatically align themselves along the axis of advance. This has led to some disappointing moments in my game as my panzers watch enemy armour move off to a flanking position, out of sight, and the turret (rather than tracking the likely movements of a serious threat) moves to AoA. Then the enemy armour pounces but by the time the turret traverses it's too late. Brew up. Will the tank commanders in CM2 remain interested in targets that are known to be in the FEBA but can't be seen? Or will I continue to lose tanks/have to modify tactics to account for the fact that the TCs in CM have the attention span of a goldfish and the situational awareness of tinned tuna? Wazron "Armoured Corps cooks come in tin cans" -graffiti on table at Singleton Army Ranges, NSW, Australia <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Wazron When the life or death of your last good tank is at stake, I try to keep the turret facing where I want it by laying in Area Fire in the direction of the threat, the only real cost to this is that it wastes HE rounds and there will likely be an HE round in the breach when the enemy tank is eventually spotted. But, as it is firing HE in that general direction anyway, I find the the tank AI is smart enough to pick up and target a tank that was lost but reappears in that general direction. This way you can make the tank hull move where you want it and by using Area Target keep the Turret pointed in the area where you suspect the threat. Costs: Wastes Ammo, HE loaded instead of AP for first shot on enemy armour. But those costs surely out weigh the cost of letting your tank think for its self, and target some other non leathal threat in front of itself just because it is moveing in that direction and then gets brewed up by the next flank shot from that threat it just forgot about over there in the trees. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 10-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 Hi Tom! Your "area fire while moving" tactic sounds like a great idea. When my tank fires at some bailed out vehicle crew, and ignores the enemy that takes them out from the flank, is infuriating! I will be sure to try your method in my next game. Thanks! ------------------ "Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 Of course, the best solution is to give the player the option of specifying where he wants the main gun to point. The inability to do this is a relatively serious flaw in the game, IMO. Isn't that the entire point of a turret? Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: ... I try to keep the turret facing where I want it by laying in Area Fire in the direction of the threat, ... Costs: Wastes Ammo, HE loaded instead of AP for first shot on enemy armour.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I do this too, but the costs aren't nearly as high as you suggest; - I choose area fire without the main gun. The coaxial MG will be used, so the main gun will point in the right direction anyway. No HE used... - Even if you prefer using HE for the area fire, this is no problem when armour is targeted. It seems like the program decides which ammo to use while squeezing the trigger, so even if an HE is loaded in the chamber it will transform to AP while moving down the gun barrel... (I've seen this happen with my famous Priests. Shooting a couple of HE at a building, and just as they've reloaded a KT pops up straight ahead. It's immediately targeted, fired at within a second or two, and knocked out by the hollow charge. No reloading inbetween.) Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson: I do this too, but the costs aren't nearly as high as you suggest; - I choose area fire without the main gun. The coaxial MG will be used, so the main gun will point in the right direction anyway. No HE used... - Even if you prefer using HE for the area fire, this is no problem when armour is targeted. It seems like the program decides which ammo to use while squeezing the trigger, so even if an HE is loaded in the chamber it will transform to AP while moving down the gun barrel... (I've seen this happen with my famous Priests. Shooting a couple of HE at a building, and just as they've reloaded a KT pops up straight ahead. It's immediately targeted, fired at within a second or two, and knocked out by the hollow charge. No reloading inbetween.) Cheers Olle<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good point about using the MG in the co-ax, I had Not thought of that, EVEN more frugal. And yes I guess the round does magically become AP or HE in the barrel without reload so it seems the game is somewhat forgiveing in this area, not entirely realistic, but it sure makes up for the fact that you can't actually point the turret in the specific direction you want, BUT you can point the co-ax MG in the direction you want it! I like it! Thanks! -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 10-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 If you have more than one tank, you can use overwatch or bounding overwatch tactics to cover areas where the main gun is not pointing. This is good armor tactics and should be done anyway, (if possible) regardless of the AI's behavior. And at the risk of being berated, I feel compelled to say that while not being able to point the turret _may_ be a flaw, I can't see how it could be considered a major one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence: If you have more than one tank, you can use overwatch or bounding overwatch tactics to cover areas where the main gun is not pointing. This is good armor tactics and should be done anyway, (if possible) regardless of the AI's behavior. And at the risk of being berated, I feel compelled to say that while not being able to point the turret _may_ be a flaw, I can't see how it could be considered a major one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree It is hardly a flaw at all if you can tell your TC to use only the Co-ax Mg and point the turret in this or that specific direction, to watch for the next leathal threat. no big deal really. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzer Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 I think it should be possible to turn the turret manually...OR to have the opportunity to ignore targets. In the game Im playing now I have 4 Shermans advancing along a road when they spot a Tiger 1000m away on our flank. These "old" Shermans dont have the punch to knock out a Tiger so I just want em to advance as quickly as possible, so I set one to fire smoke at the Tiger and the others to advance in "fast-mode" up the road. Problem was that i put the "smoke-Sherman" in Hunt mode along the road AND to fire smoke...so it ignored my smoke-command and started firing at the Tiger again with AP-rounds...sigh... And the advancing tanks were still firing like mad against the Tiger as they advanced!...rotationg the turret 90 degrees away from the front, and beeing extremely prone to ambushes further up the road... I dont want em to engage the Tiger! (Maybe I can use the area-fire with MG to prevent it, but I belive they will cinsider the Tiger a danger and still fire at it(?), even if its impossible to take it out). What about an ignore target command or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 I think there are times that it would be nice with turreted vehicles to use the 'rotate' command and have a dialog box come up saying 'rotate turret only Y/N.' There's precedent for commands that have some question attached in some cases--this box could be like the upper/lower building box or the area fire 'use main gun?' box. Of course, only BTS can say if this is really a possible feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RudeLover: I think there are times that it would be nice with turreted vehicles to use the 'rotate' command and have a dialog box come up saying 'rotate turret only Y/N.' There's precedent for commands that have some question attached in some cases--this box could be like the upper/lower building box or the area fire 'use main gun?' box. Of course, only BTS can say if this is really a possible feature. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a good suggestion to me. (nice to note the other precedents for such an implementation of this Turret rotate command) -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzer Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Punt... (BTS)Is this beeing looked at for future patches? In CM", if we shall have "realistic" tank battles, I dont want my tanks to engage that invincible Tiger all the time...(see above) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts