Possible bug when awarding points with an exit objective for reinforcements including vehicles

[Butschi]

I played around with victory points in a scenario with an exit objective where parts or the whole force required to exit arrive as reinforcements.

With units starting on the map it was as expected. I give the opposing force a destroy objective worth, e.g. 100 points and directly hit cease fire at the start of the battle. Since none of the units left the via the exit objective, the opposing side gains the full 100 points.

Now, I assign all previously on map units to reinforcements. I have a mechanized platoon and if I delete all the APCs everything still works exactly like above, full 100 points. Now I revive one of the APCs, add the to the same reinforcements group and the same unit objective. The points awarded drop to 85. I do the same with a second APC and the awarded points drop to 75. With No. 3 and 4 the points drop to 68 and 62, respectively. I did the test in CMCW, so no idea if this happens in other titles as well. The numbers here are for a US mechanized platoon. The same happens for a Soviet mechanized platoon with, e.g. BMP2s, although the numbers are a bit different.

Any idea if this is a bug or working as intended?

 

 

[ASL Veteran]

When you revive the deleted unit is it still associated with the same VPs.  In other words, are all units associated with the same VP 'group' and when you delete the units that are part of the group are they still associated with the group as before?  Also, if the reinforcement hasn't arrived yet then I don't think you get the points for it - it would only be for units actually on the map at the time the scenario ends.  I'm not certain that I'm following exactly what you are describing though so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding anything.

[CarlXII]

13 hours ago, Butschi said:

Any idea if this is a bug or working as intended?

This has to be a bug or simply an oversight in the design...

 

[Butschi]

7 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

When you revive the deleted unit is it still associated with the same VPs.  In other words, are all units associated with the same VP 'group' and when you delete the units that are part of the group are they still associated with the group as before?  Also, if the reinforcement hasn't arrived yet then I don't think you get the points for it - it would only be for units actually on the map at the time the scenario ends.  I'm not certain that I'm following exactly what you are describing though so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding anything.

Ah sorry, shouldn't have hastily made post before getting called to dinner.

I was describing my test setup to understands where the exact VPs come from (why 85 and not 82, for instance). So I did it step by step, I guess that was a little confusing.

Short version: I have all the units as reinforcements. If it is only infantry, the opposing side gets full points because I didn't exit any unit (although they didn't arrive on the map, yet). If the infantry has their APCs with them, the other side gets less points, although I still haven't exited any unit.

Yes, made sure that all units are assigned to the same VP group.

Edited February 29 by Butschi

[George MC]

6 hours ago, Butschi said:

Ah sorry, shouldn't have hastily made post before getting called to dinner.

I was describing my test setup to understands where the exact VPs come from (why 85 and not 82, for instance). So I did it step by step, I guess that was a little confusing.

Short version: I have all the units as reinforcements. If it is only infantry, the opposing side gets full points because I didn't exit any unit (although they didn't arrive on the map, yet). If the infantry has their APCs with them, the other side gets less points, although I still haven't exited any unit.

Yes, made sure that all units are assigned to the same VP group.

Can you share the btt file please?

[Butschi]

5 hours ago, George MC said:

Can you share the btt file please?

Look here:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/tp709x3im6alym9ge11us/h?rlkey=w26ftpv2jsox5f01mu095mzt8&dl=0

exit_points_test.btt is super minimalistic, only blue has units, a single platoon. Remove the M113s and red will get 100 points, leave them in and its only 62 or something similar.

hohkeppel_osm_v2.btt is a complex scenario where red has to exit. You can observe the same effect there.

[George MC]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:54 PM, Butschi said:

Look here:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/tp709x3im6alym9ge11us/h?rlkey=w26ftpv2jsox5f01mu095mzt8&dl=0

exit_points_test.btt is super minimalistic, only blue has units, a single platoon. Remove the M113s and red will get 100 points, leave them in and its only 62 or something similar.

hohkeppel_osm_v2.btt is a complex scenario where red has to exit. You can observe the same effect there.

Cheers ta. Ended up stacked wi work but should get a proper look. IIRC there was a similar issue in CMRT with infantry carriers but would have to double check. 
 

Quick play I’ve had with yours is everything works as intended re exit and destroy objectives once everything is on the map. The weird issue is when tracks are reinforcements and you hit ceasefire before they arrive on the map. 
 

But as I said I’ll double check and also check in CMRT. 

[George MC]

So just tested in CMRT and you see the same inconsistency. Test btt file attached.

SPW platoon and associated dismounts with exit points allocated (100) for the units to exit; units all R1 in five minutes.

If they arrive on the map (after 5 minutes) and exit - German player scores no points, neither does the soviet = as expected as player exiting units denies points for the enemy who have not killed them.

If they arrive on the map (after 5 minutes) and do not exit  - German player scores no points, enemy scores 100 points = as expected as units that do not exit and set as 'destroy' objectives will count as destroyed for scoring.

If the German player ceasefire before the units arrive on the map - German player scores no points whilst Soviet player scores 59 points (!)

Remove the destroy objective from the SPW and keep points the same (100). So now only the dismounts count as a 'destroy' objective.

If the German player ceasefire before the dismounts arrive on the map - German player scores no points whilst Soviet player scores 100 points - as expected.

Revive the SPW but remove the dismounts as a destroy objective - so effectively only the SPW count as 'destroy' objectives.

If the German player ceasefire before the SPW arrive on the map - German player scores no points whilst Soviet player scores 23 points.

So different numbers but similar effects noticed. Infantry only count as full destroy objective - whether they arrive and fail to exit or game ends before they arrive. But add SPW then the scoring goes a bit out of whack if the game ceasefire before the tracks appear resulting in not full points being awarded. 

However this only becomes an issue if the game is cease fired before reinforcement units which are also a destroy objective in a exit scenario. In exit scenarios cease firing early if one player has units marked as destroy objectives can really muck up scoring. One reason I tend to make this clear within the briefing. Don't do it kids! 

FYI I've filed a bug report with BFC re this issue.

EXIT TEST_V1.btt

Edited March 4 by George MC

[Butschi]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:15 PM, George MC said:

So just tested in CMRT and you see the same inconsistency. Test btt file attached.

SPW platoon and associated dismounts with exit points allocated (100) for the units to exit; units all R1 in five minutes.

If they arrive on the map (after 5 minutes) and exit - German player scores no points, neither does the soviet = as expected as player exiting units denies points for the enemy who have not killed them.

If they arrive on the map (after 5 minutes) and do not exit  - German player scores no points, enemy scores 100 points = as expected as units that do not exit and set as 'destroy' objectives will count as destroyed for scoring.

If the German player ceasefire before the units arrive on the map - German player scores no points whilst Soviet player scores 59 points (!)

Remove the destroy objective from the SPW and keep points the same (100). So now only the dismounts count as a 'destroy' objective.

If the German player ceasefire before the dismounts arrive on the map - German player scores no points whilst Soviet player scores 100 points - as expected.

Revive the SPW but remove the dismounts as a destroy objective - so effectively only the SPW count as 'destroy' objectives.

If the German player ceasefire before the SPW arrive on the map - German player scores no points whilst Soviet player scores 23 points.

So different numbers but similar effects noticed. Infantry only count as full destroy objective - whether they arrive and fail to exit or game ends before they arrive. But add SPW then the scoring goes a bit out of whack if the game ceasefire before the tracks appear resulting in not full points being awarded. 

However this only becomes an issue if the game is cease fired before reinforcement units which are also a destroy objective in a exit scenario. In exit scenarios cease firing early if one player has units marked as destroy objectives can really muck up scoring. One reason I tend to make this clear within the briefing. Don't do it kids! 

FYI I've filed a bug report with BFC re this issue.

EXIT TEST_V1.btt 8.42 kB · 0 downloads

Oh, that's interesting, thanks for checking and filing the bug report!