Why do the Russians have such small HQ and support units?

[Simcoe]

US Platoon leaders are usually around 4 pixeltruppen

Machine guns are around the same

The Russians will have an HQ unit with a single pixeltruppen

A machinegun squad is two pixeltruppen.

This is true for all the titles with the Russians represented. What gives?

[domfluff]

Using Battleorder as a reference, since pretty pictures:

Russian Motor Rifle

Bradley Platoon



A couple of things notable here - CM's modelling of any kind of organisation will be a compromise. The Bradley FO is supposed to be an attached element, so having that as a separate team (rather than as part of a five man HQ squad) makes some sense in the way the CM C2 system works, but it's still a choice that's been made for the sake of the model.

As noted, the Bradley platoon on paper can't actually fit into it's transport. This is another of the compromises that CM makes - it chooses to represent the on-paper strength at all levels. Because of this, and the hellishly complex cross-loading that has to happen, the choice in modelling all Bradleys which aren't in CMCW was just to artificially increase their available seats. That's ultimately a sensible decision, but it is a fudge, and does have some consequences.

The Bradley platoon nevertheless has a whole additional vehicle - where the BMP platoon might have 8 x 3 = 24 available seats, the Bradley platoon has more or less 7 x 4 minus one, or 28 seats.

The role of the IFV is very different - the US doctrine is that the IFV is there to support from distance, so it's important that the HQ element has dedicated radio operators embedded within them. The two elements are supposed to work together, but also be able to operate independently when required. This is not true for the Russian BMP platoon, where the BMP is to work in close coordination with any dismounts, where dismounting even happens.

The "HQ squad" in the Motor Rifle platoon, then, includes all of the attached weapon systems, as well as the platoon sergeant, who does not dismount, and therefore acts as the main C2 link between the dismounts and the vehicles.

[domfluff]

Now, Battle Order doesn't have equivalent graphics for Cold War M113 platoons yet, but the principals are mostly the same - the US doctrine was and is to push down decision making and options to as low a level as it can get away with, and that means kitting out their HQ elements with things like dedicated radios, Forward Observers, etc.
 

The Soviet and Soviet-style formations don't have or want that kind of flexibility, instead opting for a simple, robust approach with minimal load on their command structure. A Soviet-style platoon is fundamentally a simpler, more direct tool. That doesn't make it "worse" by any means - overloading people with too many tasks and responsibilities is a very real thing.

[Halmbarte]

With Sov tactics the structure makes more sense too. You'd not send a single platoon off to do anything important, you send the entire company. The Sov company has the larger command structure and key weapons available to it to make it more capable. 

H

[Redwolf]

It is also a matter of fitting the platoon into 3, not 4, BMPs.

[Simcoe]

4 hours ago, domfluff said:

Using Battleorder as a reference, since pretty pictures:

Russian Motor Rifle

Bradley Platoon



A couple of things notable here - CM's modelling of any kind of organisation will be a compromise. The Bradley FO is supposed to be an attached element, so having that as a separate team (rather than as part of a five man HQ squad) makes some sense in the way the CM C2 system works, but it's still a choice that's been made for the sake of the model.

As noted, the Bradley platoon on paper can't actually fit into it's transport. This is another of the compromises that CM makes - it chooses to represent the on-paper strength at all levels. Because of this, and the hellishly complex cross-loading that has to happen, the choice in modelling all Bradleys which aren't in CMCW was just to artificially increase their available seats. That's ultimately a sensible decision, but it is a fudge, and does have some consequences.

The Bradley platoon nevertheless has a whole additional vehicle - where the BMP platoon might have 8 x 3 = 24 available seats, the Bradley platoon has more or less 7 x 4 minus one, or 28 seats.

The role of the IFV is very different - the US doctrine is that the IFV is there to support from distance, so it's important that the HQ element has dedicated radio operators embedded within them. The two elements are supposed to work together, but also be able to operate independently when required. This is not true for the Russian BMP platoon, where the BMP is to work in close coordination with any dismounts, where dismounting even happens.

The "HQ squad" in the Motor Rifle platoon, then, includes all of the attached weapon systems, as well as the platoon sergeant, who does not dismount, and therefore acts as the main C2 link between the dismounts and the vehicles.

Great writeup. Thank you.

[Simcoe]

5 hours ago, domfluff said:

Using Battleorder as a reference, since pretty pictures:

Russian Motor Rifle

Bradley Platoon



A couple of things notable here - CM's modelling of any kind of organisation will be a compromise. The Bradley FO is supposed to be an attached element, so having that as a separate team (rather than as part of a five man HQ squad) makes some sense in the way the CM C2 system works, but it's still a choice that's been made for the sake of the model.

As noted, the Bradley platoon on paper can't actually fit into it's transport. This is another of the compromises that CM makes - it chooses to represent the on-paper strength at all levels. Because of this, and the hellishly complex cross-loading that has to happen, the choice in modelling all Bradleys which aren't in CMCW was just to artificially increase their available seats. That's ultimately a sensible decision, but it is a fudge, and does have some consequences.

The Bradley platoon nevertheless has a whole additional vehicle - where the BMP platoon might have 8 x 3 = 24 available seats, the Bradley platoon has more or less 7 x 4 minus one, or 28 seats.

The role of the IFV is very different - the US doctrine is that the IFV is there to support from distance, so it's important that the HQ element has dedicated radio operators embedded within them. The two elements are supposed to work together, but also be able to operate independently when required. This is not true for the Russian BMP platoon, where the BMP is to work in close coordination with any dismounts, where dismounting even happens.

The "HQ squad" in the Motor Rifle platoon, then, includes all of the attached weapon systems, as well as the platoon sergeant, who does not dismount, and therefore acts as the main C2 link between the dismounts and the vehicles.

Playing Black Sea with the russians. platoon HQ element is split into different teams and spread between separate BMP's. Is that true in real life as well?

[domfluff]

Yeah, so that's one of the choices/compromises that CM makes (for good reason).

The "HQ" element of the above BMP formation are the platoon leader and assistant, the GPMG team, the SVD and the medic. In Black sea that's broken into three teams of two men each, GPMG, SVD and the Platoon leader.

That's certainly done in reality - you don't want your PK following your platoon leader around all day - but in reality we're not limited to strict teams and action spots like we are in CM.