Updated: Oddities and Weird Features

[Erwin]

Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far):1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position. (Not sure if this has been fixed in CMCW.)

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high hech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  UK HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

 Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Some vehicles carry ammo that seems to be available for resupply.  But, the crew cannot ACQUIRE any, and/or neither can any other unit mount the vehicle to ACQUIRE any.  Eg: The M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS/LOF issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)  BMP's are similar vs buildings: Sometimes they use their ATGM's, sometimes their cannon, and sometimes their MG - even if one orders TARGET LIGHT.  There is no indication as to why the AI chooses a particular weapons system.

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

17) Park your vehicle directly behind a small tree and any enemy fire that comes from that direction will hit the apparently indestructible tree and the vehicle may be 100% unaffected.  Unless the enemy gun moves, it can exhaust all its ammo in this way.  AI controlled guns especially can be made useless by this trick.  

18) Attempting to resupply a squad one may split off a two-man team to mount a vehicle, get the ammo, then debark and run to where its squad is.  That takes two turns.  However, the teams may not recombine.  A turn later when one again moves both parts of the squad to the same spot, they may still not recombine.  To get the teams to recombine one has to split the larger squad team into two and then move all three teams to the same spot.  Only then will the teams recombine to the full squad and complete ammo resupply.  

19) Heavy HE barrage does not seem to damage vehicle/armor subsystems as much as expected.

20)Some vehicles like the WW2 era 8 wheeled German Rad recon vehicles are supposed to be able to move as fast in reverse as forwards, but in the game move in reverse much slower.  In the game, it may be that all reverse speeds are identical or % of the forward speed.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Erwin

[Dynaman216]

I've seen a lot of item 3 with MGs.  Some places (buildings) they just will not deploy.  The excuses given for why that happens are unconvincing.

[Erwin]

I know that it can take a very long time for an MG to deploy in a building.   Someone once explained that that was realistic.  However, some MG's do deploy in a building in a couple of minutes.

[Jabble]

I'll add one I've just noticed - an unbuttoned commander of a Stryker ATGM version can spot an enemy vehicle and shoot at it with his topside MG.  However the guys inside don't seem to be able to see it, as the Stryker just sits there for the rest of the turn without firing a TOW.  Or until it's killed first

[Jabble]

11 minutes ago, Erwin said:

I know that it can take a very long time for an MG to deploy in a building.   Someone once explained that that was realistic.  However, some MG's do deploy in a building in a couple of minutes.

I've noticed that too - it seems to take longer if they guys are under fire and shooting back with their small arms, though maybe that's just my imagination.

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, Jabble said:

I'll add one I've just noticed - an unbuttoned commander of a Stryker ATGM version can spot an enemy vehicle and shoot at it with his topside MG.  However the guys inside don't seem to be able to see it, as the Stryker just sits there for the rest of the turn without firing a TOW.  Or until it's killed first

The standard explanation for the is that it's a LOS issue.  The unbuttoned commander is higher and can see the target while the ATGM "gunner" is lower and cannot.  Supposedly, the ATGM optics should also be higher, but IIRC, ATGM vehicles do not/are not modeled the way they should be.  Unless CMCW has solved the issue, that means that an ATGM vehicle which should be able to only have its optics peering over the hill in"hull down" is modeled as if the whole top of the vehicle is able to be seen and targeted - making the use of ATGM vehicles very hard and usually suicidal.

[Jabble]

10 hours ago, Erwin said:

The standard explanation for the is that it's a LOS issue...

That's very believable.  While the basic mechanic of LOS/F is sound, it looks like it needs to be reworked for a number of units.

It would be nice if BFC had a system of putting out betas with specific fixes added, later to appear bundled in a release patch.  Perhaps that will be a more realistic hope when all titles are available on Slitherine/Steam.  For example, look at what the guys at Command:MO do.

[Erwin]

Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far):1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position. (Not sure if this has been fixed in CMCW.)

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high hech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  UK HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

 Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Some vehicles carry ammo that seems to be available for resupply.  But, the crew cannot ACQUIRE any, and/or neither can any other unit mount the vehicle to ACQUIRE any.  Eg: The M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS/LOF issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)  BMP's are similar vs buildings: Sometimes they use their ATGM's, sometimes their cannon, and sometimes their MG - even if one orders TARGET LIGHT.  There is no indication as to why the AI chooses a particular weapons system.

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

17) Park your vehicle directly behind a small tree and any enemy fire that comes from that direction will hit the apparently indestructible tree and the vehicle may be 100% unaffected.  Unless the enemy gun moves, it can exhaust all its ammo in this way.  AI controlled guns especially can be made useless by this trick.  

18) Attempting to resupply a squad one may split off a two-man team to mount a vehicle, get the ammo, then debark and run to where its squad is.  That takes two turns.  However, the teams may not recombine.  A turn later when one again moves both parts of the squad to the same spot, they may still not recombine.  To get the teams to recombine one has to split the larger squad team into two and then move all three teams to the same spot.  Only then will the teams recombine to the full squad and complete ammo resupply.  

19) Heavy HE barrage does not seem to damage vehicle/armor subsystems as much as expected.

20)Some vehicles like the WW2 era 8 wheeled German Rad recon vehicles are supposed to be able to move as fast in reverse as forwards, but in the game move in reverse much slower.  In the game, it may be that all reverse speeds are identical or % of the forward speed.

21) Crewing oddities.  BMP's usually benefit re spotting from an extra man or two in the vehicle in addition to the crew in addition to enabling the vehicle to "Open Up".  A BMP cannot "open up" if it only carries its 2-man crew.  If the BMP has lost a crewman, and there are no other inf being carried, it cannot TARGET - it becomes merely a transport vehicle.  However, sometimes, leaving an extra two-man team in the BMP will enable it to "open up" and TARGET and other times it won't.  Adding a two man crew from another vehicle to the BMP will still not enable this BMP to TARGET anything and the BMP still cannot "open up".  The extra crew are treated as mere passengers.  It's all irregular and unpredictable.  

[Erwin]

To add the the crewing issue re "opening up".  One can have a 3-man (Sagger) ATGM team in one BMP2 and one can "open up" as expected.  Another identical BMP2 with a 3-man (Saxon) ATGM team has the "open up" button greyed out, so one cannot open up.  The only difference is that the latter BMP2 vehicle is assigned to a scout unit.  Otherwise, the BMP's are identical.  

[Jabble]

17 hours ago, Erwin said:

To add the the crewing issue re "opening up".  One can have a 3-man (Sagger) ATGM team in one BMP2 and one can "open up" as expected.  Another identical BMP2 with a 3-man (Saxon) ATGM team has the "open up" button greyed out, so one cannot open up.  The only difference is that the latter BMP2 vehicle is assigned to a scout unit.  Otherwise, the BMP's are identical.  

Yes there's a bit of inconsistency there.  Some vehicles can unbutton the crew, typically the commander, while others can unbutton their dismounts if hatches are available.  As far as i've noticed, the crew "open up" is only available if there is an external gun available for use.  For hatched troop-carrying vehicles with a topside gun, "open up" causes both commander and dismounts to unbutton.  Interestingly if you then dismount the troops, their "open up" button will remain selected even if they're hiding behind a wall.  I think it rememebers their status for when they remount the vehicle.

 

Edit: Actually I think I'm wrong about the above. I just tried a couple of examples and noticed that if the vehicle allows the commander to unbutton to serve an external gun, then no dismounts can do so.  I only see dismounts being able to unbutton if there's no external manual weapon i.e. no external role for the commander.  Indeed some types of units can unbutton while others can't, and I can't see any obvious pattern to that.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Jabble

[Erwin]

What is confusing is that one can have what appears to be identical situations, same vehicle, same crew and passengers, and one can unbutton and the other cannot.

[Jabble]

57 minutes ago, Erwin said:

What is confusing is that one can have what appears to be identical situations, same vehicle, same crew and passengers, and one can unbutton and the other cannot.

I first noticed it when I could unbutton an infantry squad but not an ATGM team, so I thought it's about using primary weapons.  But there are other cases where that logic doesn't apply, so I'm not sure what's even intended.