Sarge Posted December 29, 1999 Share Posted December 29, 1999 this being my 1st post, know that i did try a search first....so be gentle with me if i'm retreading on old ground. my observation and reading of WWII armor exchanges were that the tendency was to keep firing till an enemy AFV brewed. "IF" penetration was even known, fire was continued (Unless a 2nd vehicle butted in). to what i've seen in the demo (and the Full ver of course may have addressed this) TOO MUCH information is given! Tanks that are KO'd or abandoned, not only are announced when it happens, but at any point in the game -you're only a click away from ascertaining the status of any vehicle. am i alone? shouldn't KO'd vehicles be kown to only the side that lost their use? opinions welsome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcarey Posted December 29, 1999 Share Posted December 29, 1999 I think that you can help yourself out a little by turning "detailed armor hit text" off. This will remove the messages saying, "Front Upper Hull Penetration: Gun Damage" and the like. Won't help with knowing if vehicles are abandoned or not... I would like to see this be a for of war issue. If you have full identification of the vehicle then you should get an abandoned/KOed message for it sometimes, if you have partial identification, then maybe an intermediate status like "just sitting there" could be displayed. This could mean KOed or it could mean the opponnent is ordering it to hold tight and wait for you to go away. Add just a little confusion... - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 29, 1999 Share Posted December 29, 1999 The "shoot it til it burns" tactic has been added to the full game. Tanks will continue to fire at targets until they burn, or a higher-priority target presents itself. The player may also command units to fire on knocked-out vehicles to completely destroy them and prevent their being recovered by the enemy. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scurlock Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 O.K that's good, but what if the bailout is observed, a highly likely accourance I might add? As long as the leading tank observes the bailout, and has a transmitter, and the rest of the platoon a receiver, the KO should be confirmable, an the news spread to the entire platoon post haste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 Hi all, As Doug points out, you can shoot up a KO'd vehicle either by accident or on purpose. The former is due to FoW, the latter is because you want to make SURE it won't be used again at a later date. This is important for campaign games where disabled vehicles can be recovered. We have toned down some of the info you get when the vehicle's ID is not full. However, it is impossible to provide totally realistic FoW because the human player knows too much already. So if the crew bails out, the human is going to know unless we totally hide it (which is NOT realistic in most cases). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 In real life, I would suspect that you'd know you knocked an enemy tank out when it brewed up or the crew jumped out. The confusion might happen when 1) the sighting unit is simultaneously knocked out 2) all crew members are killed 3) something (e.g. smoke) obstructs the LOS to the exiting crew 4) the crew decides to stay put inside a knocked out tank (which seems pretty unlikely) It sounds like BTS has the right approach. I'd love to try the latest build and personally verify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 I'll add one more to Aacooper's list... The tank is penetrated, all crew dies or is incapacitated, but the vehicle does not brew up. This wasn't very common, but it certainly did happen. Oh, and another one that is a bit outside of CM's scope is abandoned/destroyed vehicles from other battles. There were something like only 5 King Tigers knocked out through enemy action in the Ardennes. However, the 20 something that were taken out were listed as KO'd by enemy action. Seems that planes spotted them, had no idea they were out of gas, and bombed the crap out of them. Then the Allies found the vehicles burnt out and thought it was done in battle. Also, I have read of a few cases where an Allied force came up to a tank already out of action and attacked it on the assumption that it was still OK. There is a pic I have of a Panther with about a dozen hits and several penetrations. The caption states that the tank was already knocked out, but some follow up tanks found it, got spooked, and "knocked to see if anybody was home". Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 31, 1999 Author Share Posted December 31, 1999 well i'm confused..this last post by BTS seems to indicate agreement with my initial post.... as to workability in the sim, since info is attached at the time of 'kill' should the 'killed' AFV ever become UNspotted...could th e attached info be dropped? obviously i'm not fully comprehending of programming so this could be insurmountable. billcarey: where is this option to turn 'detail armor hit text' off? in the full version? my demo only allows FOW - on/off in options. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 31, 1999 Author Share Posted December 31, 1999 oops sorry for double post, but i meant to add when we gamed on a sandtable, with miniatures, when hits were scored, the target ed tank player, would calculate the surface hit and weather or not penetration occurred. any HIT was only identified as a THUD or PING. thud telling the attacker, penetration occurred. if no visable results he could be 'seen' he had the option to continue or find a new target.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcarey Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 Sarge, While you are in a game, push shift-d (I think) Anyway, if you click on the hotkeys thing down in the status area it will show you all the hotkeys. Turn detailed armor hit text off is one of them. - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter Soldaat Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 Hi Sarge, Read your posting.I disagree with you allthough I do agree with you on the other hand. Some postings ago named 'Kill info' I asked for more information of how a kill could occur. This is mostly because I want to examine the factors that influended the kill. This is because I want to learn from an engement. Furthermore I would like to know the 'combat-results-table'. This is to know how the chances are of winning or losing a tank. I realize that providing this information gives the player more info than a commander had in reality. But still I want to learn. It might just be possible in CM-2 to build a feature that gives a total replay of the battle and that only then all the information is provided and not before. This helps to evaluate the battle that was played. It also gives you more knowledge of the specific qualities of the used vehicles or squads. Hope Steve or Fionn will react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Sarge, I can see why you might be confused by my last post. To clarify... In general tankers did know that they KO'd what they were shooting at, even if the vehicle did not brew up. The problem is the visual cues that would allow the player to figure this out for themselves are not simulated (stuff like hatches blowing open, seeing the impact, etc.) So unless we tell the player, explicitly in text, where the shell hits and what it does, the player will NEVER know. So although it is an abstraction to have hits known to a fairly accurate degree all the time, it is necessary. The same thing goes for the exception I mentioned where the crew is killed, but the tank doesn't brew up. This was a rare event, so we shouldn't rob the player of the larger percentage of times when they would know. The funny thing is until just before the demo went out, there was NO INFORMATION about hits. The testers, and folks on this BBS, made good cases to have this info included. The main argument, besides the realism one, is what Pieter mentions. CM is a wargame and players need to have the info necessary to learn from. What we have included is, in our opinion, a good balance of realism and playability. Not perfect, but nothing is BTW, we have made some tweaks since the demo to not give away certain cases. Not exactly sure what they are since I haven't played the demo in ages, but the one I remember is about "Gun Hits". You now do not know for 100% certainty that you have KO'd the tank's gun if you score such a hit. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 2, 2000 Author Share Posted January 2, 2000 excellent news BTS guys....i know you are committed to putting out a sim that is as close as possible to accurate. in my own experiences in gaming realise how often rules need to get tweaked, but only after hours of playtesting. ahhh those lucky beta tester's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyland Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 <">It sounds like BTS has the right approach. I'd love to try the latest build and personally verify it.<"> Yes, Steve, I would like to personally verify it as well. Please feel free to email me for my address and send me the game. Jonathan ------------------ For the last time, you don't need antibiotics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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