gatsby Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Hey I was wondering if you guys were still going to give us the capability to be able to copy squads from one scenario/operation to another...A long time ago Steve you said this was on your list of things to put in. You said that you would do it so that scnario makers could copy entire orders of battles but that it would also aid guys like me who like to try to track a company from one scenario/operation to another... On a similar note you also said that we would be able to edit individual squads so that they could be half strength or have a few missing M1's BARS etc... Also...it would make life easier if we could copy one map or a portion of a map to another... And... it would be nice to be able to edit scenarios/operations in media res so to speak...I mean edit games after they have started... If you recall I was adamant about some of the RPG functions that could be incorportated into the game... even before the game was out you had a meta campaign being planned and since it has come out there are many players starting their own form of RPG games...For a generation who grew up playing soldiers and personifying the little plastic guys or the little cardboard cutouts in Tactics 2 its a must... I for example even though actually have named every memeber of a company and use probablities(dice LOL) to determine who is killed and wounded...Yes I understand that the turnover of front line companies was huge but that still doesn't mean I am not interested in seeing the turnover happen... Also after our discussions of last summer I did some checking...and my (still practicing) military history pals say that there were a lot of companies on both sides(especially the German) who saw action throughout the war...they say look at the Big Red One for example or the Das Reich divisions or of course Monty's 8th army......there are companies in all of these divisions who fought thorughut the war or until they were obliterated and put back together...the Voges campaign is another prime example... Anyway I like to track my company and see that one guy in platoon A who was the only guy standing in one battle survives and gets a battlefield commision and manages to fight another few battles only to be killed by friendly fire...Hey I'm aplaywright I like to make things up... Finally I would like to add my voice for more randomness in the quick battle setup..and was wondering if you willl indeed have the equalivent for operations.. I think that was also on the must do list...I have more but this will do for now LOL...Obviously congratulations on the game John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mortiis Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I would like to be able to track my men from battle to battle- even though they may get wiped out sooner than later it would make me love that little squad leader who managed to survive it all. Certainly its much too late to implement this in cm 1 but I hope campaigns will be a reality in the future. I understand that the size of our battle units would mean that they wouldnt have an effect on the big picture. I dont care about that, the sense of accomplishment would be trying to keep the group alive, survival. I've read the threads on this just wanted to let my stand on this be known. [This message has been edited by Mortiis (edited 08-25-2000).] [This message has been edited by Mortiis (edited 08-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Consider that the US 1st ID suffered 3616 killed, 15,208 wounded (664 died of wounds). That is an incredible turnover rate. With something like 5000 men assigned to the 27 inf companies (who suffer the most casualties)--thats over 300% casualties..I doubt there were many intact companies left.. Patton wrote, "when an infantry divison has 4000 casualties, it has no rifleman left.. Das Reich suffered tremendously , too. I don't have those figures handy.. Just my thoughts. ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 The Russians and Germans suffred over 300% casualties in some formations. ouch. Its not a meat grinder its a men grinder. I too would like to see if one man could stay alive through 3 battles. That guy that took out 12 tanks, I want to keep around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I would enjoy a campaign aspect greatly myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatsby Posted August 25, 2000 Author Share Posted August 25, 2000 Airborne: I did a masters in Military history and was working on a phd fifty centuries ago so I realize that the turnover was very high in front line troops...But... I have been reviewing(playwright but do some book reviews for fun)books of many (ten) soldiers who made it through the entire war. In fact there is a publisher(aegis press I think) who are ardently tracking these kind of guys before they die and you'd be suprised at the number who actually did survive... anyway I am not looking for a detailed campaign mode and certainly not a panzer general kind of thing.. As I said last summer to Steve...all I want to do is be able to take what's left of a company battalion etc...and transfer to the next scenario/operation...Even if everyone is dead but 2 guys I still want to do it..and decide on replacements etc...If this was built in...so much the better...but as of now its time consuming to do it manually..and the inability to create understrngth squads is a serious ommission in scenario creation... What I would really like is to do a SASL style scenario or operation...Go out and perform recon etc with a company not knowig what's in front..That's why I would like more randomness in the quick battle generator..I just want to take whoever is left, transfer them to the next quick battle and then edit the squads... I am having a gas doing it manually...figuring out who was killed or wounded in a squad..whether they are seriously enough wounded to be forced back into the replacement pool or shipped home or whether they are patched up and brought back..I have my own standards..for example if a squad is completely eradicated by a machine gun in less than a minute my feeling is that probably more men were killed than if that squad fell to slow attrition...but that is just personal preference... This game is the first game that has the potential to allow us to completely immerse ourselves in a world war two fantasy atmosphere... For me I am not that interested in the balanced scenario thing...I have had the same arguments over the years with the guys on ASL list who want perfectly balanced scenarios for tournaments etc.. I want to be able to play at war...meaning I want to see what would happen if my company ran up against a vastly superior enemy but I don't want to know it before hand...I want to figure it out and then try to get my guys out...or conversely find scattered resistance in front of me and see who gets whacked from a single machine gun or a few snipers...Now I have played these out but I know that there are only snipers or a battalion etc...I want to have to figure it out just like I would if I was there... John John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Thanks for some clarification, John. This just isn't something I'm into with this game--YET.. It does sound interesting and I do tend to attach myself to certain units during a particular battle. I really haven't even tried an operation yet. To many possiblities with the QB generator alone.. ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I was wondering if you guys were still going to give us the capability to be able to copy squads from one scenario/operation to another...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Perhaps a compromise! Steve,Charles,..If you're reading this, What about being able to edit the number of men in a squad with the editor? This IMHO,would both give players an ability to "track" battles(provided they're not lazy ) and allow designers to create "battle damaged" formations in new scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Everything you have mentioned here and some you haven't (editing rank, # of men, weapons, solitary squads with no platoon leader attached and about 100 more) have already been brought up by members of the beta test team once and again (and again). We are arguing for these changes. We will keep arguing for them. They have not passed unnoticed by the beta testers. We want them too. Just so you know these things are nothing new. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 In general, there is a LOT of work that can be done to improve the useability and felxibility of the scenario/operations editors. Off the top of my head: 1. Allow map creation seperate from scenario/op creation. 2. Allow the player to purchase reinforcements from a limited pool in operations. 3. Allow a lot more editing of units in the editors 4. More and more varied victory conditions. Etc., etc. What we ahve is a good start though. The above lsit was not meant ot be exhaustive or even critical, but just a few things I ahve thought of. I really like the idea of letting players purchase reinforcements for Ops from a limited pool. Not very "realistic", but a LOT of fun, IMO. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 If you changed the topic from : "Topic: Stuff promised and not in yet" to "Topic: Stuff we never thought of and yet they put it in anyways" this topic would be much larger. IMHO, I think BTS should freeze CM as is and work on the expansion pack and CM2. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Although casualties were very high in the rifle companies, there were men who survived most of the war and I imagine they were many who survived for the 2-3 months that a CM campaign would cover. My understanding is that most casualties were amongst new replacemnets and that if a man could survive the first few days he had a pretty good chance of surving for at least a few months. Therefore I think that this system that just about everyone seems to want is not entirely unrealistic and should be included in CM2. For more realism I would like to see more casualties take place among less experienced troops. Perhaps individual soldier experience could be tracked and a squad's exp level could be determined by an average of all soldier's levels. The bottom line is that it would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Hello Guys, I'd prefer that any development of the game should continue on the "Squad Leader" trail than going the RPG road. It's been about time a game like this comes out and finally nails the realism of tactical gaming. I think trying to put ANY RPG element into the game will ruin it's original purpose. Hell, computer Squad Leader will be coming out here in the near future, and that will have all of the RPG features your looking for. I agree with Airborne that the whole idea of keeping track of names isn't consistent with the game and isn't really realistic. If you read books like "Devils in Baggy pants" by Ross Carter, you will see he was the LAST one in his company to make it through (poor guy died of cancer in 1949!!!) You can also Read "Currahee" where the author and his 3 room mates were the last ones left out of their company after the 101st' 3 big battles. I look at it like this. I tried to do the names thing in CC and I got fed up after they kept getting wiped out. I'm still waiting for my copy of this game to come, and when it does, I want it to be what it is, a highly realistic tactical wargame that I can say bye to my beloved Squad Leader. Anything more than that, I think the game slowly gets ruined...... -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatsby Posted August 26, 2000 Author Share Posted August 26, 2000 teamski LOL Yeah I rtead it along long time ago and again on the can a few years ago...he was in an airborne unit which by its very nature is designed to take heavy losses... Um Guys: These were things that were due to be in CM...Do a search on campaigns or my name(gatsby) and you will see I was discussing this with Steve...This is not stuff that I want added because it occurred to me... I can feel the topic take a swing here as some people are getting defensive about the game...Nobody is suggesting Diablo here...I currently play the board games of Worl in Flames and Advanced Squad leader...so I am not looking for anything that would not add to the realism...If the design team has decided to take this off the table so be it...I'd just like to know...As you can see from Wild Bill's comment ...tyhe beta team has been pushing for it or do ytou think they want to be play Queen's quest in Normandy... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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