Guest Germanboy Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 This is a post I made on the are HTs too vulnerable thread. I think it is a problem, but would like to get some input from others as well. I believe there is an issue about maneuver when under mortar fire for light armour, i.e. it does not happen. When an AFV spots it is in trouble (e.g. spotted an enemy AFV/LATW/AT-gun) the TacAI will reverse it out of there and drop smoke. If infantry is caught in the open, they will get suppressed, panic, whatever, and the TacAI will react to that. Nothing of the sort is happening when light armour is caught stationary in an area fire mortar barrage, and they usually get killed. In an operation I currently play I took out two ACs by dropping a mortar barrage on them. The mortar rounds were dropping for a whole turn, with the kill coming towards the end in each case. The TacAI made no attempt to get out of it. I believe that this might be the reason for the what seems to me very high number of top-armour hits in the game. And there is little or nothing you can do as the player, except for keeping them continually on the move. Any comments on this? Am I doing something wrong or have other people had similar experiences? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epée Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 I feel the same way as Germanboy. The AI should make HT reverse if they are being fired upon by mortars or artillery. Lost two HT yesterday, in one minute, to one mortar. Epée Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 I posted my reply in the other thread, but I just wanted to chime in here too. I agree that it seems like the TacAI doesn't take take area fire as a threat. I haven't tested it, but I suspect it might be for all units, just not light armor. Grunts don't seem to respond to it, until a blast actually hits them (which, probably, is how it should be). Heavy AFVs don't respond to it (again, probably how it should be). It really becomes a problem with the light AFVs though. A blast near a squad might take out one or two guys, and thn they'll react. That 'feels' about around. But a blast near a HT or Armored Car, will take the whole thing out of commision. The TacAI doesn't seem to kick in until a casualty has be caused to the unit. In the case of HTs and Armored Cars, by the time the casualty has been caused, it's too late... Now, the TacAI will reverse out of trouble when a HT comes up against a tank, it would be nice if it did the same under mortar area fire. Now, obviously, it might be more difficult to choose the correct direction for the vehicle to go, but going _anywhere_ would be better then just sitting there and taking it all turn. I've had it happen often where a mortar will take a vehicle out near the end of the turn. The vehicle could have easily moved out of the blast pattern of the area fire after the first or second shot... Anyone else have similar experiences, or are my expectations just wrong and HTs and Armored Cars in reality did get taken out by small caliber mortars this much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 I agree that it would be nice if HTs, scout cars, etc. would back out of trouble. In some cases when an onboard mortar is doing the firing, you can watch the shellholes "walk" toward the HT until finally, Kaboom! I think the problem isn't that units don't react until they take a casualty (since tanks back up when fired on w/o being hit). Instead, I believe it is b/c they can't see the firing unit. For instance, when an unspotted AT gun fires at a tank, the tank usually does not fire smoke and reverse. However, once it notices an 88 AT gun is firing, it hightails it to cover. In most instances, if an HT simply reversed out of the firing pattern it would be far better than waiting to be brewed up. Any movement would be better than sitting still. Regards, The Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 The addled and evil DrSenileTea has destroyed TWO (2) {II} of my lovely little SPW251/9 HTs mounted with 81mm mortars with his own puny stinking little Canadian 2 inchers (the size, I am told, of The Evil DR~Tea's fully aroused member). Therefore I DEMAND that Steve and Charles do SOMETING about this IMMEDIATLEY. Obviously they are complete chowderheads who know nothing of wargamming, computer programming, TOE, LMNOP or The Norwegian fish slapping dance. In fact, they should both be sacked and replaced by Ralph the Wonder Llamma. Sorry. Anyway, I must agree that it is dangerous for OT vehicles in places where mortars are falling and that the 8 or 13 or whatever second delay can spell death. {Dr~Tea would spell it D-E-T-H. but that's OK.} I would be very happy if they ran away a lot instead of waiting for that inevitable 'lucky' round to drop in and say "BOOM" Peng. ------------------ A Journey of a thousand miles starts with a single gunshot wound to the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrPeng: Obviously they are complete chowderheads who know nothing of wargamming, computer programming, TOE, LMNOP or The Norwegian fish slapping dance. In fact, they should both be sacked and replaced by Ralph the Wonder Llamma.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You tell them Mr. Peng! Well done I say, and to the point. Regarding heavy armour, I have killed a few Panthers with 3in mortar top hits. So they should reverse as well, I would think. Tigers seem immune. If that is in fact not a problem, Mr.Peng, can you please buy lots of HTs in our soon-to-come PBEM? Thanks in advance. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 halftracks are basket catchers for mortar rounds. period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 Oh my, one of Berli's HTs just ran over a BUMP. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 Okay, I realise I am talking to myself by now, but never mind... Some qualitative data from my PBEMs. PBEM1 - one HT in mortar view, toast before the turn is up. PBEM2 - two Pumas in mortar view, two Pumas toast before turn is up. PBEM3 - one HT in mortar view, toast within the turn PBEM4 - one HT in mortar view, toast before the turn is up. Errr, that's it... All these kills by 2in or 60mm mortars, most of them vets, sometimes direct view, sometimes under control from platoon HQ. The TacAI in no case tried to do anything about it. I know it is no problem for a mortar to kill the pesky light armour as far as penetration goes, the question is should the TacAI not do something about it, or is that very difficult to code, or did HTs just sit and bear it? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrPeng: The addled and evil DrSenileTea has destroyed TWO (2) {II} of my lovely little SPW251/9 HTs mounted with 81mm mortars with his own puny stinking little Canadian 2 inchers (the size, I am told, of The Evil DR~Tea's fully aroused member). Peng. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Quite right, Peng. They are both 2 inches in diameter. I have noticed this vehicle/mortar issue. I noticed it with great joy, and even giggling, in the game Peng refers to. As I have come to deeply love mortars (holds finger up and frowns in admonishment over comments on the tips of every one's tongue), I'm not sure that I want this fixed! Whether it is accurate or not historically, I don't know. Obviously a player needs to keep them on the move for them to stay alive. But I do notice that during the 60 second turn, the Tac AI doesn't seem to respond to them as a threat, and it often doesn't take that long before the mortar nails them. I will say that in many of the first-hand accounts I've been reading, mortars seem to have been extremely effective and deadly weapons. It could be that, since they come almost straight down with no warning sound, they were a weapon that soldiers and vehicles reacted to with uncertainty. Where was the fire coming from, which way to move, better to stay put or flee, was it a mortar round, or a thrown grenade, or what, etc. etc. I think it bears looking at, at least now that my game with Peng is over. ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvK Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: ... Regarding heavy armour, I have killed a few Panthers with 3in mortar top hits. So they should reverse as well, I would think. Tigers seem immune. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Um, were the Panthers unbuttoned when killed by 3-inch mortars? If not, sounds like an inaccuracy to me. Panthers were supposedly very hard to kill with arty top hits, unless it was a very large round. At least, the German reports after Kursk said so. PvK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PvK: Um, were the Panthers unbuttoned when killed by 3-inch mortars? If not, sounds like an inaccuracy to me. Panthers were supposedly very hard to kill with arty top hits, unless it was a very large round. At least, the German reports after Kursk said so. PvK <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It was a while back, but I am quite sure that at least one was buttoned. And one burst into flames, so I guess that it was quite serious as a hit. I imagined engine deck, but who knows. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 I dont think there is much to be done when vehicles come under mortar fire. Hits are purely random and who's to say one position is any better than another position. Crews are buttoned up so visibilty is nil. All you can do is take it and wait for the next turn to try and get out. I read where Stonewall Jackson commented on dodging enemy fire. He said to just stay where you are because chances are that if you move you'll run into the next bullet. I trust BTS's modeling on this issue and it probably reflects the real world of combat. Remember that each turn is only one minute long and there's not alot you can do in that time. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 I'll agree with Germanboy's original observation. HT's (and armored cars) don't react to incoming mortar rounds as a threat, and IMO this should be tweaked. Played a QB a few days back and lost a Puma and 4(!) HT's to 3 in. mortars, even though I kept them moving... Then again, I was playing Stolberg last nite and a Stuart knocked out my prize Panther from the front at 500 meters... ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 I agree there's a problem. Maybe. I'm finding german AC's almost useless, always getting KO'd by mortars. The thing is, I don't know if this is ahistorical or not. I find it easy to believe mortar crews would aim at an AC, especially one with a heavy gun or a load of troops. Maybe it didn't happen, maybe it did. I'm no historian. So why do I post if I have nothing important to add? Well, I'm losing most of my PBEMs right now, and I feel quite incompetent. At the very least I want to have more postings than my opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 With regards to mortars killing NON-open topped AFVs, has anyone seen it produce an IMMOBILIZATION result? I would think this to be nearly as likely as an outright kill, especially if the mortar bomb is found to strike the engine deck. Whether the offending mortar is spotted or not, I think the vehicle should make some effort to get out of the impact area, especially so if it's lightly armored or open topped. (I would) ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: With regards to mortars killing NON-open topped AFVs, has anyone seen it produce an IMMOBILIZATION result?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep, many times. I have a good record of immobilizing Shermans with the 81mm mortar. And I've never managed to kill one with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Does anyone of the Grogs know whether this was a common problem for light armour. Not just theoretically, but practically. I don't buy this 'I am being shot at here, but I won't move, because I might be shot at over there too' argument. I would move, unless I sat in a King Tiger. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Well, I'm not sure the solution. I'm in the midst of a QB with Havermeyer and his 60mm mortar took out 2 of my SPW 251/1. My tracks never moved. But if they did, I'm not sure I'd want them too (as Stonewall Jackson said - you might move into the next bullet). The kicker though was when my buttoned up Stug III got brewed up by an 81 mm and did nothing but take it. Again, should they have moved? I don't know. Is it realistic? I don't know. But I do know it's frustrating as hell! Havermeyer will feel my wrath tonight ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 I would say this is a problem because when somone is using light armor to pin me in position and I look to see where my AT is and it is across the map I don't worry because the pinned squad happens to have a 2 in. mortar. Hmmmm that's not right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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