Ceebee Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 POSSIBLE SPOILER!!!! I've just finished the Arnhem campaign and completly butt **cked the SS, I'm amazed at this as I now think the PIAT is over effective in CM, I had five PIAT teams in a triangle formation (in different houses) that tore the SS armour apart, two vickers teams in a cross fire covering the bridge, the SS were slaughtered! Until it got to day 4 day! My PIATS were running low on ammo, my vickers were jamming! so I moved Engineer teams closer to the bridge to use thier satchel charges on the comming armour! I moved other teams closer and they started using grenades! magical to watch! It finally got to the last day and I knew I'd won as the odd team was comming over the bridge, and get this, a german HQ unit bimbled over stopped half way across and started doing the Nazi salute (he must of pi$$ed off my sharpshooter coz he was slotted one!) Bloody amazing, Ceebee EOL [This message has been edited by Ceebee (edited 07-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Malan Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ceebee: I've just finished the Arnhem campaign and completly butt **cked the SS, I'm amazed at this as I now think the PIAT is over effective in CM, I had five PIAT teams in a triangle formation (in different houses) that tore the SS armour apart <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I presume the PIATs were all firing at point blank range, flank and rear shots? I doubt if they are over rated, the PIAT was quite an effective warhead.(And the bazooka for that matter), although not quite as good as the PF. The problem with it was range, and its inability to shoot pointing down (the shell slid forward out of firing position). Sometimes it failed to recock itself after the shot, and that meant you had to do it manually (no joke I believe). The flip side is NO SIGNATURE, NO BACKBLAST (ain't life great in built up areas!). If you were getting side or rear shots you should be taking most German armour out most of the time. (Look at what happened for real! If the paras had not had effective anti tank weapons at the bridge the Germans would has shelled them out in hours not days). BTW your mail was close to a spoiler, you might put a warning in. ------------------ The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil the Dill Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 I just finished playing the same opperation and won it without facing any resiestence (with the exception of the pillbox in the first turn). As soon as you get your paratroopers into the heavy buildings next to the bridge you've won. By the end I almost had all my squads in those heavy buildings, the crouts never made it past half way. I'd hate to play it as the germans: as soon as you loose one of your vehicles crossing the bridge they become an effective road block for your other vehicles where you just sit there to be picked on by piats and gammon bombs. To make it more even sided the germans should get reinforcements come in on the road on the west of the map on the British side. This would even be historical considering the Germans controlled all the territory around Arhnem. ------------------ Who says charging the enemy isn't the best policy?... words of the late, "great" commander Haigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 Try it against a human opponent. ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 Just a note that messages that include information like this are better located in the Scenario Talk board, so as not to possibly give any spoiler info. If your intent was to point out PIATs in general are overly effective, then leave out any scenario specific details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceebee Posted July 23, 2000 Author Share Posted July 23, 2000 Apologies to all for the possible spoiler, I was excited and to be honest I let the moment get away with me! (I was seriously assualted by two 75mm in my pervious game) Somebady can shot me if I've ruined it for someone! Again I apologise, Ceebee EOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted July 23, 2000 Share Posted July 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phil the Dill: I just finished playing the same opperation and won it without facing any resiestence (with the exception of the pillbox in the first turn). As soon as you get your paratroopers into the heavy buildings next to the bridge you've won. By the end I almost had all my squads in those heavy buildings, the crouts never made it past half way. I'd hate to play it as the germans: as soon as you loose one of your vehicles crossing the bridge they become an effective road block for your other vehicles where you just sit there to be picked on by piats and gammon bombs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I played it through as the Germans and the Brits never made it within 3 blocks of the bridge. By the 2nd night I had pushed them back to about 6 blocks, and on day 3 and 4 my armored cars and halftracks loaded with panzergrenadiers were roaming the city mopping up the few survivors... Personally, I can't see how the Brits stand a chance in that campaign. So of course I'll have to try it from the British side now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 I see a lot of people playing this op. first and then coming to the conclusion that operations against the computer are easy, boring... Guys, I wouldn't really use this scenario to come to any conclusions. As the Germans, the computer has to attack accross the bridge for the last 5 battles and usually doesn't get anywhere because it's easy to defend. The German reinforcements should really be coming from both sides of the river but the CM operation engine doesn't handle attacks coming from > 1 direction yet. As the Brits, the AI doesn't know that it's even supposed to go for the bridge because there's no victory locations in operations. All it knows is that it has to stay alive (because the goal of the op is German Destroy) and it figures it can do that pretty well where it is so why bother going for the bridge? The map is beautiful, the situation is a natural for an operation but it's not quite there yet. Give Drive To Mortain a shot and then say the AI is easy to beat. p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 Read a thread on the war-historical NG about this Op. A point made by one poster was that in the actual battle the Brit paras were attacked from all sides. In CM, reinforcements can only be brought onto one map edge during ops but this restriction doesn't apply to single battle scenarios. This completely hamstringed the CM Arnhem Op. Is this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 I have worked on an Arnhem operation and battle both. I scrapped the operation because of difficulties placing historically accurate reinforcements & some other elements that never felt right. I opted for a long battle on Tuesday afternoon Sept 19th instead. I haven't got the thing refined to my liking yet, but the map is about as accurate as can be... Gotta tweak the units/reinforcements to get it 'ready for prime time' though. Stoner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 David, Would you mind comparing notes with me on your map. Im building Arnhem block by block using aerial photos, AAR sketches by the men who were there, and artists renditions. (I might add I'm going blind in the process squinting at these pages). The bridge and blocks I have now are dead on, however Im missing rescource information/photos of the terrain on the south side of the river, and was wondering if you had any info. All I can make out is some open ground, and a small road serviceing a pier west of the bridge. I can shoot you my map if you'd like a look. Im all for creating this battle as historicaly accurate as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 Hey Echo, I have used three books and this link of Dutch highway maps for my information: http://www.lokatienet.nl/ The books I'm using are very good: It Never Snow in September (german info) Arnhem 1944 (brit info) A Bridge Too Far The first two are great for pictures and maps. They are the best resource I have used. Get them if you can... "It Never Snows..." has a high altitude 1944 aerial photo of the whole area after the battle (including the southside). However, you need a magnifying glass to discern the details since it is covers probably 3-4 miles by 2 miles of area. The map I am making only goes south about approximately 900-1200 meters. I'll double check when I get home & hollar back at you. Stoner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 David, I'll answer your query, though MikeO already has. The biggest problem facing a scenario designer for this operation is the fact that the designer CANNOT designate the entry point of the German units. So, after the first battle, I cannot have German units start on the north side of the river. It just won't do that for me. I tried and I tried, redrawing zones, and everything else I could think of. I spent over 100 hours just designing and testing this baby. And I will congratulate heartily anyone who can have units coming from the east and north. The limitations of operations is a problem. I thought about dropping it, but then I felt that it would still be fun and after the hours I put into it I was not about to toss it. You're right fellas, objective flags would work very well, along with the designer's ability to set entry points for German units. I recently thought of a possible solution, but I have not had the chance to try it out yet. It would mean redrawing the map again and I have not had the time or the courage to tackle it again. For those of you doing your own version...good luck! You will need it. You are opening a can of very squiggly worms If I can help, let me know. It is a real challenge. Personally, from the viewpoint of fun, I had a lot of fun playing it. I still do. I hope some of you will too. That was my intention. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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