Snipers versus Sharpshooters, FYI

[ScoutPL]

Fallschirmjaeger company was attached to my parachute infantry battalion for a rotation to JRTC (Joint Readiness Training Center). JRTC is much like NTC in California or CMTC in Germany, being a mech guy you may be more familiar with those. JRTC is a training grond with its own dedicated OPFOR and civilian players. Its set up for light fighters and regularly puit up to a light brigade to the test in two week rotations. All of the fighting is done with MILES, which is a laser system the army uses for training. Soldiers wear sensors and there are a number of different laser "shooters" for each of the different weapon systems, from assault rifles to main tank guns. Since all of the lasers are designed for US weapon systems, the german paras had to draw US equipment to play with us. I thin they send over a company two or three times a year now for rotations. Germans are very aggressive, which gets them in trouble at times, but they always leave with one of the highest enemy body counts. Whats a Gerbilwerfer? (purpose, caliber, etc.)

Also I'd like to stick to my comment about scoped rifles and engagement distances. If the Finn had stuck to his scoped rifle he could have doubled his engagement range and raising his head a few centimeters wouldnt have mattered. But keep in mind here I'm applying rather modern ideas of what defines a sniper so add that grain of salt to the wound before you snap back at me!

[Slapdragon]

What? Disagree with an officer and a gentleman? How can you think such a thing...

[Bobbaro]

Regarding tss reporting that Simo prefered iron sights, when I did my rifle training at Ft. Leanord Wood (a long time ago)the range instructer said that the fellow with the highest score at that facillilty, did not even use the sights. But, as sniping probably is an altogether different matter, where wind, temperature ect. must be accounted for at extreme ranges. Shooting with iron sights as a hunter might do could be quite effective, especially with a hunters skills in stealth. It could even be more effective for running up a higher score faster, than the highly selective and time consuming methods of trained sniper. A person who possessed both skills would likely be something else indeed. I read about snipers selecting their equipement and approach according to need, sometimes being closer to combat and sometimes closer to hunting a prized quarry.

[Schugger]

You caught me off guard with those abbreviations, Scout PL.

If CMTC does mean Crisis Management Training Center, I might have heard of it but I hadn't particpated in any multinational maneuver. As far as I know the german combat units which belong to the Crisis Reaction force ( maybe they had invented a new name for it) consist only of light Infantry units and is rather small. So Fallschirmjägers would fit quite well in this role, armoured infantry less so.

What concerns the (in)famous Gerbilwerfer, Slapdragon might have forgotten to add a smilie. That piece of equipment only exists in the twisted minds of board members who stayed around here just waaay to long

The same thing is true for the leichte Transportfördermachine

[Slapdragon]

What is wrong with my leichte Transportfördermachinen ? Something needs to harvest the Gerbilwerfers from the secret underground caverns in which they are made.

[PawBroon]

FYI:

http://www.snipercentral.com/index.phtml

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Will you trade your Peng for a box of Seanachai?

[Schugger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

What is wrong with my leichte Transportfördermachinen ? Something needs to harvest the Gerbilwerfers from the secret underground caverns in which they are made.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Patati Patata

Only real ignorants can overlook the fact that leichte Transportfördermachinen are solely used for the underground movement of a special armed forces branch, namly the famous Kommandozwerge. Gerbilwerfers are totally out of date and are only used in very poor third world countries like Pengland and were used at last in modern warfare in the 17-18 Bananenkrieg.

[ScoutPL]

Well we've mangaed to stubble aross my one weakness... I tend to take this stuff too seriously. Comes with living with it right there in front of me for too long I guess. The "Gerbil" piece had me wondering but I thought what the hell, why not ask!

[Slapdragon]

Well ScoutPL, but you do not realize that the US Scout platoons were suppose to have 6 Gerbilwerfers mounted on landtransportenfordenmenshenfliegerschissenschwimmenwagons, but when the issue was brought up in committee Jesse Helms vetoed it because he thought it was a German Sandwich and he does not like "furren" things. Being a Tarheel I know you know what I mean.

[tss]

ScoutPL wrote:

Also I'd like to stick to my comment about scoped rifles and engagement distances. If the Finn had stuck to his scoped rifle he could have doubled his engagement range and raising his head a few centimeters wouldnt have mattered.

I think I should point out that Kollaa was a WWI style attrition battle. The Soviet lines were mostly about 100-300 meters from Finnish positions (I don't have a map near to check it). Also, in that area you would be hard pressed to even find a place where you can see more than a half kilometer as the area was heavily wooded with some openings at marshes and fields. Of course, after Soviet artillery had pounded the area for a couple of months there was a lot more open space.

Another problem with scopes is that they reflect light. The Soviet sniper that I mentioned above died because of this. Here in Finland the Sun doesn't get very high on Winter days and the practical sniping time would have been cut to half if Häyhä had used scopes.

And I once again want to emphasize that I don't claim that snipers would be better of using only iron sights. Just that this particular sniper felt that he was more effective (and much safer) without them. And he got 246 confirmed kills (supposing that I remember the figure correctly).

- Tommi

[Slapdragon]

What made him a sniper was not the scope, but the tactics.

[ScoutPL]

School trained snipers are taught to deal with all the problems you just discussed. If the lines were fixed and that close then I can see going to shorter ranges as not being a problem. A sniper ops for distance when he is operating alone. The farther you are away from the target the harder it is for the enemy to spot your muzzle flash or pinpoint the direction of the sound. Plus you can be far away from the spot you shot from before they can call for artillery or send a patrol out to look for you. If the lines are stable then you wouldn't need to worry so much about your own security. Flashes off your scope can be handled by maintaining an awareness of where the sun is in relation to your scope, as well as adding an extension to the scope that prevents the sun from flashing off of it unless you point it directly at the sun.

246 confirmed kills. Pretty high. Always seems morbid to me to keep track like that. But most armies do it. I dont think the shooters care much one way or another, they're just doing a job and they're the ones who have to relive each shot after they go to sleep at night. Mostly I think its probably the REMF's who like to keep score, gives them something to talk about.

[Slapdragon]

Which creates urban legends. Some urban legends are true. During Korea a set of Marine sharpshooters (without scopes) would make rounds of US Infantry unit (Army) during the attrition phase of the war. They were used a solution to heavily dug in machinguns.

Often they would come in when the Infantry unit had been taking some casualties, usually by jeep. The team was two marines, who later taught Marine Sniper School in Vietnam. They would have one soldier pop up and unload a clip of M1 at the machinegun then fall flat. Then they would have one more soldier do the same. Normally that second soldier would catch the ire of the machinegun but as the man raised up the Marines would shoot the machinegunner.

[ScoutPL]

I guess the Marines figured they could only get a bunch of dumb Army grunts to play chicken with a machinegun....

[Combatboy]

Seems like the sharpshooters are really weak. I only use them as scouts anyway, what else do you use a guy with 10 shots for?

One time though I killed a tank commander with one, so I am willing to admit being stupid about them. How do you use them?

[Shandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Seems like the sharpshooters are really weak. I only use them as scouts anyway, what else do you use a guy with 10 shots for?

One time though I killed a tank commander with one, so I am willing to admit being stupid about them. How do you use them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use them solely to take out TCs. Other than that they can burn up thier ammo pretty fast shooting at infantry.

Jeff

[tss]

ScoutPL wrote:

The farther you are away from the target the harder it is for the enemy to spot your muzzle flash or pinpoint the direction of the sound.

Yes. Finnish snipers in Winter War had one unusual advantage with regards to avoiding detection: for some reason Soviet soldiers got convinced that Finnish snipers would almost always shoot from trees (they even called the snipers as `cuckoo`s). This belief was so universal that it is mentioned as a fact in every Red Army veteran interview that I've read. One even claimed that they had been shot at by mortars that were up in trees. In reality the snipers shot practically always from ground. Someone may have sometimes shot from a tree but I don't know of any case.

So, when a sniper shot, the Soviet response was to fire up to trees with all weapons while the sniper sneaked away safely.

- Tommi

[Schugger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Seems like the sharpshooters are really weak. I only use them as scouts anyway, what else do you use a guy with 10 shots for?

One time though I killed a tank commander with one, so I am willing to admit being stupid about them. How do you use them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you'll may guess it, there are one of my favourite units in CM. I was a bit disappointed when I put them first into use when they went through their ammo within a few turns. To hide and issue the target orders directly to them may do the trick here.

Also, do not waste your ammo by firing at enemy squats, better preserve it for high priority targets like TCs and FOs. They are also very good in surpressing units. When you need to rush a platoon to a certain position and the line of approach is unfortunatly covered by a MG42, one shot with your sharpshooter will usually do the trick and force them to take cover.

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shandorf:

I use them solely to take out TCs. Other than that they can burn up thier ammo pretty fast shooting at infantry.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A while back, this same discussion recommended putting them someplace semi-safe with good field of view and then leaving them alone. I.e., let them pick their own target. I do this and it works well. Not only did he keep three tanks buttoned for most of a game, he also made a gun crew abandon their gun.

[C16_Blackhorse]

Sharpshooters are NOT snipers! Sorry this subject is near and dear to my heart seeing as I am a 19D40B4(19D-Scout, 40-Sergeant First Class, B4-Sniper identifier) US Army.

1. SPR, this scene was very realistic except for the German in the bell tower. A sniper (assuming he was) would not "tree" himself. However, the baiting was dead on and it is quite demoralizing for those watching.

The Sniper has two missions.

1. To deliver highly accurate long range rifle fire on key select targets. (If Iwas the german in SPR Iwould have shot the guy pointing and directing Tom Hanks)

2. Collect and report all battlefield conditions in a timely and accurate fashion.

2. The difference between the SS and the sniper is not the shooting. You can teach a monkey to shoot at 800 meters. It's the field craft. Sniping is an art. Sharpshooting is a skill. Cops are sharpshooters, lunatics on college campus's and McDonalds are sharpshooters.

1-3. PERSONNEL SELECTION CRITERIA

Candidates for sniper training require careful screening. Commanders must screen the individual's records for potential aptitude as a sniper. The rigorous training program and the increased personal risk in combat require high motivation and the ability to learn a variety of skills. Aspiring snipers must have an excellent personal record.

a. The basic guidelines used to screen sniper candidates are as follows:

(1) Marksmanship. The sniper trainee must be an expert marksman. Repeated annual qualification as expert is necessary. Successful participation in the annual competition-in-arms program and an extensive hunting background also indicate good sniper potential.

(2) Physical condition. The sniper, often employed in extended operations with little sleep, food, or water, must be in outstanding physical condition. Good health means better reflexes, better muscular control, and greater stamina. The self-confidence and control that come from athletics, especially team sports, are definite assets to a sniper trainee.

(3) Vision. Eyesight is the sniper's prime tool. Therefore, a sniper must have 20/20 vision or vision correctable to 20/20. However, wearing glasses could become a liability if glasses are lost or damaged. Color blindness is also considered a liability to the sniper, due to his inability to detect concealed targets that blend in with the natural surroundings.

(4) Smoking. The sniper should not be a smoker or use smokeless tobacco. Smoke or an unsuppressed smoker's cough can betray the sniper's position. Even though a sniper may not smoke or use smokeless tobacco on a mission, his refrainment may cause nervousness and irritation, which lowers his efficiency.

(5) Mental condition. When commanders screen sniper candidates, they should look for traits that indicate the candidate has the right qualities to be a sniper. The commander must determine if the candidate will pull the trigger at the right time and place. Some traits to look for are reliability, initiative, loyalty, discipline, and emotional stability. A psychological evaluation of the candidate can aid the commander in the selection process.

(6) Intelligence. A sniper's duties require a wide variety of skills. He must learn the following:

Ballistics.

Ammunition types and capabilities.

Adjustment of optical devices.

Radio operation and procedures.

Observation and adjustment of mortar and artillery fire.

Land navigation skills.

Military intelligence collecting and reporting.

Identification of threat uniforms and equipment.

b. In sniper team operations involving prolonged independent employment, the sniper must be self-reliant, display good judgment and common sense. This requires two other important qualifications: emotional balance and field craft.

(1) Emotional balance. The sniper must be able to calmly and deliberately kill targets that may not pose an immediate threat to him. It is much easier to kill in self-defense or in the defense of others than it is to kill without apparent provocation. The sniper must not be susceptible to emotions such as anxiety or remorse. Candidates whose motivation toward sniper training rests mainly in the desire for prestige may not be capable of the cold rationality that the sniper's job requires.

(2) Field craft. The sniper must be familiar with and comfortable in a field environment. An extensive background in the outdoors and knowledge of natural occurrences in the outdoors will assist the sniper in many of his tasks. Individuals with such a background will often have great potential as a sniper.

That was a section from US Army FM 23-10 chap1

So I think that clears that up. As for the Grenadier looking for German Sniper training you could try GS-9 if they do any joint training, I thought Hammelburg had some sniper training, being the home of German Jaegers and Grenadiers. Did the German Army pick up the G-11? I think that was the designation for the next generation rifle from HK.

As for iron sights vs scopes. Scopes do not make it any easier to shoot. They make it easier to see. If you can not hit with iron you will not hit with scopes. In fact iron sights are the preferred sight out to about 600 meters depending on the individual. They are more accurate and provide 1/4 increment adjustments as opposed to the scopes 1/2 increment adjustments.

I have a question. Why do snipers get only 10 rounds of ammunition CM. That seems totally rediculous.

And now I will perform a dismount from my soapbox. 9.7 9.8 9.4 9.8 OOHHH!!! and a 4.5 from the Serbian judge! I did not mean to sound fanatical. If you have any q's just post or write.

Pete

[GriffinCheng+]

Well, I read from a Taiwan-published defense mag that most snipers there are vegetarians for vegetarians leaves "no traces of smell" for enemy to search for. Anybody can elaborate this one?

Any movie question -- is the guy in "Clear and Present Danger" a sniper or sharpshooter? Does US military conduct "training" like in the movie?

Is H&K PSG-1 have better range than other rifles out there?

Griffin.

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"+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again

[Slapdragon]

In the game they are sharpshooters not snipers. The ten rounds of ammunition represents 5-6 minutes of firing.