The Commissar Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 I've had several instances when my men would come upon a hidden squad which opend up on them, but instead of doing the sencible thing, they would first hit the ground, and then get up and keep on walking to wherever I might have sent them before. I could understand if the fire came from far away, but I'm talking close quarter combat here! I had a turn when my men were moving past a bush which happent to be infected with hiden Germans. So the germans open up on my poor dim-witted squad, but instead of fighting back, they keep on moving stubbornly. If this is a bug, I hope BTS puts it on thier list for the next patch, and if it intended, please show me anyone who would ignore the big German pummeling down on him with the butt of a gun, and continue trying to move to an intended location. I wish there could be some control over the situation, like telling your men to "move at any cost" or to stop and return fire when fired upon. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 I suggest you read the manual. What you have asked for is what is provided by the sneak command. Really, read the manual. It IS explained in the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 22, 2000 Author Share Posted August 22, 2000 Really wish I had the manual Fionn, as well as the game that comes with it Thanks for the reply though, Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" [This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 08-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Experience may play a role, too. The lesser the experience, the stupider things troops seem to do. OTOH, I have seen Veteran or better squads charge an ambush (which is an acceptable tactic depending on circumstances). ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar: Really wish I had the manual Fionn, as well as the game that comes with it Thanks for the reply though, Cheers! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry - but am I missing something in this thread? Does The Commissar own a copy of CM, or is he simply playing the demo? If he is just playing with the free demo, how is he justified in writing such demanding messages? ------------------ -- Toad Ontario, Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 I have the manual and I have read it and I (of course) have the game. This still happens using the "MOVE" command (not even the "SNEAK" command). Just to head-off the inevitable doubting Thomas': The enemy unit was always spotted (before the turn even began as a matter of fact). My units were not "Green" or "Conscript" they were "Regular". My units were not in the open and thus too 'smart' to take cover in their current location (they began in "Woods" and never left the "Woods") My units were in command the entire time (funny thing is IF they had NOT been in command they most likely would have been better off, because then they MIGHT have become "Pinned" or "Shaken" and at least gone to ground). The units never stopped, took cover or fired a single shot in response...until they completed their "Move" order...then, they of course open fire... And they took massive casualties by the time they finished their "Move" order. Two squads took 50% casualties between the two of them. I also have the save file btw (it was PBEM). If you want a copy email me and I will bounce one back to you as long as you can keep in under wraps (the game is still going on). ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Now I'm REALLY confused. Scott, are you talking about the same game as The Commissar? If so, whose troops were they?? Or is it a case of "it happened to me, too"? ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 It appears that The Commissar was playing the demo. My game has nothing to do with that. This is something that happens in about 50% of the games I have played that have infantry fighting in heavy woods. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 The Run and Move commands imply that you want your unit to reach the given destination at all cost. The Sneak command assumes there is the possibility of an ambush. If, for example, you want to cross open ground and then enter woods, do a Run command followed by Sneak. This strikes me as another instance of people wanting a problem solved through reprogramming instead of tactics. And there do seem to be a fair number of people on the board who effectively want us to be a manual for them instead of buying their own. (I'm not referring to you, Commissar - but I do have particular people in mind.) David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The units never stopped, took cover or fired a single shot in response...until they completed their "Move" order...then, they of course open fire...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. With the 'Move' order troops will not stop to engage but continue with their orders unless incapacitated. 'Sneak' will tell your troops to stop and take cover. Troops with 'Move' will fire but not near as often as a stationary squad. Now you said the enemy was spotted already and you ordered your squads to advance towards it with 'Move'. They got chewed up as a result... You ordered your squads to advance on an unsuppressed enemy so what other result did you expect? That seems reasonable to me unless I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Run and Move commands imply that you want your unit to reach the given destination at all cost...The Sneak command assumes there is the possibility of an ambush.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, you are way off on this AFAIK. Perhaps Fionn will repost what he posted a few days ago on a separte forum in regards to how these commands are intended to work. It was a very good, detailed and concise post. But, I am not the one to repost for Fionn. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>David wrote: The Run and Move commands imply that you want your unit to reach the given destination at all cost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> AFAIK that is true for 'Run' only. 'Move' is meant more as a tactical advance to their destination I think, from what I have observed troops 'Moving' in the open are less exposed to enemy fire than 'Run' and will seek cover sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You ordered your squads to advance on an unsuppressed enemy so what other result did you expect<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here are a couple of results I'd expect: 1) Stop, turn to threat, fire (regular or better) 2) Stop, go to ground, seek cover (green) 3) Stop, turn around, haul ass (conscript) Unfortunately, The result I see all too often is the unit stroll into and past the threat, all the while being shot to pieces. ------------------ Wow, I've had the **** hit the fan before, but never like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 If I use run, I don't want my troops to think, I want them to get thier ass from A to B. That's a direct order. If I want them to think, I use sneak. I guess move is in between but I don't like in betweens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Moreover the demo is not as good at this as the game V1.04. If you liked the demo, you will love the game. BTS also actively improves the game. This game is just going to get sharper and sharper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 "If he is just playing with the free demo, how is he justified in writing such demanding messages?" 1. He isn't really. 2. He is playing using either V1.01 or 1.02 * thus bearing little relevance to issues at hand in 1.04 AND just serving to screw up discussion by mixing behaviours from various different patches BUT... I've learnt that reason and logic often have little bearing on why people post. And Scott, Correct, it wouldn't be your place to repost it. If I choose to I choose to. Otherwise it stays where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windstarz Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 I did a search for Fionn's detailed command explanation. Couldn't find it. What heading was it under? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhosYourFarseer? Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Reason? Logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 http://www.cdmag.com/Home/home.html?forum=http://www.cdmag.com/cgi-bin/WebX Unless he deletes it out of spite it is in the "War" forum, "Combat Mission" discussion post #955. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 08-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Here it is: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>sigh*. Lots and lots of misconceptions, plain incorrect facts and wishful thinking here. Here are the facts ( or as close as one can get when using fuzzy logic for TacAI). Infantry Movement orders comprise: Fast: Run to a specific location. Don't worry about enemy fire. Your primary objective is to get to point B. Units will ONLY fire their SMGs while running. LMGs, carbines, rifles etc will NOT be fired. Move: Units move tactically. Their exposure to enemy fire is much, much less than when FAST moving and they fire ALL weapon types as they advance. Think of this as the squad advancing in little rushes with an average overall rate of advance of walking pace. Only drawback to this is that if your guys are crossing a lot of open ground they can really be attrited by enemy units since they're exposed for such a length of time. Sneak: Squad advances carefully and slowly and will NOT fire until fired upon. When fired upon the squad will stop and return fire. If the squad is green etc then it can easily screw up and ends up firing once and trying to continue the advance or gets pinned and simply stops and gets chewed up. Basically the sneak command is very dangerous to use since usually units given a sneak command end up out of command range when they run into the enemy and thus often get pinned a little, fail to return enough fire and then get anihilated. OTOH a platoon can very effectively sweep a forest when set on sneak and kept in good C&C. I've utilised this many times in forest-fighting with no problems. Crawl... Minimum exposure but incredibly slow. Crawling units aren't interested in firing back at all. Personally I have zero problem getting my infantry to perform in forests by using a combination of FAST, MOVE and sneak. And Scott, You must be using inexperienced troops or have them out of C&C or something since I have never seen a problem with troops engaging enemy units in forests which weren't directly in front of them. Hell, just today two of my SMG squads ganged up on a US squad which was equidistant between them as the platoon line formation advanced through the woods ( the squads were advancing using SNEAK. One was fired on by the US unit ( which had previously been unspotted). Both of my squads in range stopped and returned fire. This was with Vets in C&C .)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [This message has been edited by iggi (edited 08-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Well thank you very much for that info Fionn. I took the initiative to post this cause it is very interesting public post. I learned things that were not in the manual. I didn't know that only smgs were fired in fast mode. I didn't know that sneak meant you don't fire unless fired upon. I knew that sneak mode stopped your troops movement(move to contact). I would like a mix of move and sneak like move to contact and stop but fire imeadiatly upon seeing the enemy. ie don't just return fire like sneak. That would be a more agressive sneak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 It isn't only SMGs that will fire while running - other automatic or semi-automatic weapons will also fire. Weapons like the M1 (garand and carbine), BAR, Bren gun, etc.. I remember Steve mentioning this months ago... Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 23, 2000 Author Share Posted August 23, 2000 Thank you for your replies, confused and angry as some of them may be Yes, I have the demo. No, I wasn't able to find anything in the search function because, well, we know why. No, I don't have the manual nor the 1.4 patch. Yes, I do like seeing my men obbey orders in my demo PBEM's, so that's why I posted. No, I don't think it is necessary to look down on me and rudely imply at "what right" I have at asking questions. Thanks again, I'll keep your advice in mind. Just thought it was sort of weird for men to move past danger at such close and potentially deadly ranges. I'll use sneak next time. Cheers ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Scott, Drop the crap. I don't mind someone like iggi posting my stuff from another forum but I'll be damned if I'm civil to you or let you repost things I've posted elsewhere. So stop trying to insinuate I'm spiteful etc against the forum in general. I reserve that for you and one or two others who absolutely deserve it for your priggish behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just thought it was sort of weird for men to move past danger at such close and potentially deadly ranges. I'll use sneak next time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Be careful- Sneak has been changed somewhat over time. In the demo, I had units "sneak" directly over the top of a firing MG42, and continue, while the MG turned around and began shooting them in the back. It is vastly improved, now. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001760.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts