Survivable Stugs?

[AndyRoss]

Does anyone use these offensively? When it's not practical to use them for infantry support (safe from tanks and distant from bazookas) I tend to find them a nice spot and wait for the enemy armour to stray into their view.

I'm really thinking of chance encounter here. What I usually do is rush two across the mud to the rear of the church: pointing one out over the wheat fields and the other used as an infantry support gun to prevent the overrun of my left flank (and a backup to the other near the church).

I almost always place my final Stug at the edge of the right flank forest: just near the front on top of a ridge which lets it see most things approaching from the road towards my left flank.

Anyway, quite often the Shermans manage to wipe out my defensive strategies (it'd be boring otherwise ) so recently I've been trying out using them as assault guns. If I use them all in one spearhead straight down the centre (to the edge of the wheat field) I can usually take out two or three Shermans, sometimes without loss or even damage. After that I make a drive past the leftmost house which was protecting my left flank and can usually get the remaining Shermans. I realise that this would fall on its face against humans, but it does seem to work against the AI.

So how do you guys use them? A cautious and safe bet? Or all out hard-hitting?

I would much rather have some tanks and leave the Stugs to clearing up infantry platoons

[Guest Captain Foobar]

My love affair with the Stug ended with teir first armor vs. armor encounter. My mistake was that I tried to use it as a "tank". I have learned the hard way that it is a "gun". It has some things going for it, low profile, decent penetration, but the slow rate of fire makes it very risky to use in a "stand and deliver". I only trust my Stugs in a 1 on 1, or advantaged situation. If the U.S. has multiple armor units, I get really fatalistic.

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"when in doubt, run in circles"

[Goanna]

Well, I'm pretty offensive. I think I have offended Berlichingen and Beman on an occassion or two, so I'll give you my 2 bits.

Once again, I feel that some of my brethren just haven't experienced the thrill of using these beauties fully. I have been able to decimate the Sherman forces on several occasions, typically when the StuGs are in ambush, but even after I have been spotted and engaged. The key is not yourself, but your environment. I invite either of you to CE for an experiment.

BTW, can someone in grogland tell me out of curiosity what the StuG overall kill rate in the war was vs. an M4?

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desert rat wannabe

[This message has been edited by Goanna (edited 01-09-2000).]

[Bullethead]

In Chance Encounter, the StuGs have some good terrain advantages that really help them vs. the Shermans. Against the AI, you can often kill all the Shermans without loss because of these terrain advantages. Against humans, these advantages ain't so decisive, but they sure help even the odds.

Terrain Advantage #1

No worries about tanks on the German left flank due to that impassable wooded hill with the objective flag on it.

Terrain Advantage #2

The road leading from the German map edge to the church is screened from US observation by a low ridge. StuGs can get hull down on this ridge and have good observation over pratically all of the US tank avenues of approach.

Terrain Advantage #3

The German left rear is screened by the wooded objective hill and the hill the church sits on. A Stug right beside the church on the left side can semi-enfilade most of the US approach area from a hull down position without worrying about flanking tank fire from the German left front, due to the wooded hill.

So, what I usually do is move 1 StuG up to the left rear of the church but keep it at the bottom of that hill. I put the other 2 spaced out along the road in the German center, behind that low ridge. I keep them out of sight there while my grunts run up into the village and woods on the right.

So, on the turn my grunts come into sight occupying the village and forward slope scattered trees of that low ridge in the center, some of them get spotted and some of the Shermans start firing on them. On the next turn, my center StuGs hunt up their ridge and bushwhack several Shermans, usually without return fire, let alone loss. On the turn after that, they reverse back down out of sight while the StuG at the church comes forward and hits the Shermans from another direction. On the last turn, the church StuG reverses. Meanwhile, the center StuGs have moved about 50-100m along the road behind the ridge, then hunt back up in slightly different places.

Against the AI, this usually spells doom for all the Shermans at pretty long range, like no closer than the US end of the center wheatfield. But humans KNOW you have StuGs out there somewhere, so will have some tanks overwatching. Still, the above tactics help a lot.

-Bullethead

[AndyRoss]

Foobar, I think you meant a Stug-vs-Armour encounter

Goanna: I reckon I'll agree with you there. I was doing Chance Encounter again earlier today with an ambush posture and killed all the Shermans for one dead StuG (and I think that was unlucky )

It's good trying to find nice spots to ambush from (as you say, using the environment is more important). I used to look at the map almost solely from the KPD4 view but it's impossible to see the 'lay of the land' properly that way. Now I usually look around for a nice spot and then go right down to KPD2 and 1 to see exactly which spot I'm going to hide at.

I generally only move my StuGs if I've got a great opportunity for a kill or once the coast is clear from those Shermans.

I was going to say thanks but no thanks for a PBEM game, I REALLY don't like those SMG squads (if I'm on the Allied side ) but what the hey: I've got some tactics I wouldn't mind trying out on someone.

[Wolfe]

Bullethead wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Terrain Advantage #1: No worries about tanks on the German left flank due to that impassable wooded hill with the objective flag on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Au contraire. If you're talking about the wooded area on the right (from the US point of view), you *can* sneak a tank through those scattered trees and even come out in a low area between the small wooded near the road and the scattered trees.

Where you go from there is up to you , but it takes 9 turns using the slowest speed (Move). Just don't get stuck!

Though you *do* emerge from the trees sitting pretty exposed on a hill, so you might want to high-tail it down into the low area.

- Chris

[Bullethead]

Wolfe said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Au contraire. If you're talking about the wooded area on the right (from the US point of view), you *can* sneak a tank through those scattered trees and even come out in a low area between the small wooded near the road and the scattered trees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno, I think my point still holds. The scattered trees barely extend beyond the church on the German left, the rest are impassable woods. And moving through the thin band of scattered trees to get that far left exposes you to flanking fire from the village area.

So realistically, US tanks can't turn the German left under cover. They can, by going very slowly, approach the German left front under cover, but then they have to either frontally attack or risk flank shots while moving further to the German left.

Besides, with normal luck, while some Shermans are taking 9 turns to sneak through the trees, any left out in the open are long since dead. The German player can count so he'll figure out where the others are. Thus by turn 9, the sneaking Shermans will emerge into the kill zone of all the StuGs .

But this sort of thing is all gamesmanship anyway. It's the sort of thing that comes from playing the scenario repeatedly and getting out of the spirit of the game defined by your orders in the beginning. In real life, you wouldn't drive your tanks through there, whereas you WOULD use your StuGs as I described.

GAWD I can't wait for the full game and its editor, so we can do something besides trying to find and exploit THE gamey SOLUTION for a few scenarios

-Bullethead

[Wolfe]

True, you can't go all the way into the forest, but you can go partway. And when you emerge from the trees, you can then go around the forested line of trees near the road onto the extreme German left. Just be sure of where all the enemy tanks are or you may get a nasty surprise yourself!

It makes for a nice surprise, but takes a good while to crawl through and you *do* come out exposed. I left a tank sitting there (against the computer) for only 2 turns. It shelled some infantry near the church. I had already killed two Stugs which crested the main hill earlier. Unfortunately, the computer had left the 3rd Stug back near the houses where the Germans begin their approach. It brewed my exposed Sherman and I didn't even see the darn thing until it started moving forward a few turns later. Distance FOW. :-(

BTW, I don't think you can see anywhere near as far into those scattered trees as you would need to in order to be able to spot Sherms moving through there.

- Chris

[Major Tom]

StuGs can be deadly, if you know how to use them. Much like the 88, StuG's are only really effective at long ranges, and where they are already set up in their line of fire. I am in 2 PBEM games right now, they are both in Chance Encounter and my StuGs are fairing differently in each game. One game has my StuG's picking off Sherman's at long range and providing good infantry cover (lost 1 StuG vs. 2 Shermans). However, my other PBEM where the Sherman's closed the range and can use their turrets to full advantage I am trying desparatley to survive (lost 2 StuG vs. 1 Sherman!). Get your StuGs into positions where they can get to the Shermans long range, and, place them where they cannot be attacked at by multiple angles.

[Bullethead]

BTW, I don't think you can see anywhere near as far into those scattered trees as you would need to in order to be able to spot Sherms moving through there.[/qutoe]

Germans in the church area have no trouble at all seeing infantry moving through those scattered trees in front of the church, and StuGs on the low ridge in the German center have no trouble at all placing effective fire on them. Tanks are easier to see than infantry

-Bullethead

[Guest Zigster]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goanna:

BTW, can someone in grogland tell me out of curiosity what the StuG overall kill rate in the war was vs. an M4?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but I can tantalize. According to a pre-invasion study by Number 2 Operational Research Group:

60% of all Sherman losses were the result of a single shot from a 75mm or larger calibre gun, and two thirds of those brewed up when hit.

By contrast, the frontal armour of 75mm self-propelled guns (type not specified, but presumably StuG at this date) prevented penetration 75% of the time.

Cheers.

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Der Zig