zgrose Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Are there rules against placing AT mines on road/pavement? Just looked in the manual at page 91 and could not find any info. This is what happened: During setup of a QB (town, gentle slopes, medium size), I wanted to place my AT mine on the road since the weather was rainy and I knew that my brother would probably stick his heavier equipment on the roads. When I went to "Place" the mine, the bar remained red while over road/pavement. I know I've placed an AT mine on a road before (unpaved perhaps?) 2 QBs ago. So my question is simple, are there rules for mine placement? If so, where? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob/1 Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 On paved road you can't because I would be seen right away! They would have to did through the pavement then place the mine. Oh look LT a mine right in the midde of the road lets go around it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zgrose Posted December 21, 2000 Author Share Posted December 21, 2000 That is what I was guessing (hard to place in pavement). I wonder if pavement can equal cobblestones? You could certainly remove stones, dig a little hole, and replace the stones. If this is the reason, it is good to know that there can mine-free locations on the map. My TCs have enough to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Daisy-chain anti-tank mines work perfectly fine on paved roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Anti-tank mines cant be set on pavement & roads for some odd reason. But daisy-chain anti-tank mines can be set on roads and pavement. As for Rob/1 you use mines to slow and channel the enemy not necessarily to destroy him (if it happens it's a nice bonus, but not necessary). So having an obvious minefield isnt a bad thing, I not sure of the official BTS explanation on why regular mines cant be laid on roads or pavement. But im sure it is out there. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zgrose Posted December 21, 2000 Author Share Posted December 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Daisy-chain anti-tank mines work perfectly fine on paved roads.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree. I am only referring to "standard" AT mines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 zgrose, I hate to say this, but this has throughly been discussed before. Maybe a search on tank mines and pavement would work. If I remember correctly the official BTS answer was that 1. Burried tank mines would be too obvious in a road w/ or w/o cobblestones 2. It would take too much work to burry AT mines in a road. Remember the ground is supper compressed underneath the road. I beleive that most mines are burried by hand at this time. Therefore it is impossible to place AT mines on road/pavement. I think a couple modern combat engineers concured with not being able to bury AT mines in a road. Theron P.S. I'm sure if you really, really want to a mine can be burried anywhere. You have to remember that combat engineers are working under a time constraint. Therefore it wasn't SOP to burry mines in paved roads, it took too long. Thats why they make daisy chain mines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte99 Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Speaking of mines, I haven't noticed that antipersonnel minefields make a damned bit of difference one way or the other. I had a big fight between my GIs and some SS units the other day, and squad after squad of the SS romped through my shrewdly placed mine fields with impunity. Finally eliminated them all, but the mines sure didn't seem to deter them. ------------------ "Arms are my ornaments, warfare my repose." --Don Quixote [This message has been edited by Monte99 (edited 12-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zgrose Posted December 21, 2000 Author Share Posted December 21, 2000 Well, did a search just now and found nothing but a reference to mines in pavement in one of the scenarios. Here is a second, slightly related question just for my curiosity's sake: Is there such as thing as a trip-wire AT mine in the current or WW2 arsenal? Drive along, run over/push wire, shaped explosives from the sides. No idea if it would even work (maybe against HTs?), just wondering if such a thing exists. Lemme rephrase the thought this way: How do you ambush tanks on roads without people laying an ambush? [This message has been edited by zgrose (edited 12-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 About mining roads: The current way to make a minefield on a road (most of which are paved) is to dump a load of gravel on the road and spread it to an about 20cm thick layer. Then bury the mines in the gravel, or don't if you want to make a fake minefield. The only reason I can see for not allowing regular minefields in CM to be placed on paved roads is coding. The Ideal would be to allow it, but treat them like Daisy-Chains. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Couldn't find the thread either. I remember it was the third thread by Scott Clinton that really took off . (first 2 getting locked immediately) But in short, the answer was "NO! NO! NO!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/010630.html ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 I am a Combat Engineer and I have seen AT mines placed in a paved road. In fact I have seen improvised AT mines made out of concrete to be placed on a paved road. The Croations were particularly adept at breaking pavement, placing a mine and then camming it with a combination of coal grit, clay and ground up concrete. Now whether or not the engineers in CM would have time would depend entirely on the scenario. IE a German prepared defence could definitly do this but in a hasty defence I really doubt it. Zgrose. Yes there is such a beast, it is called an "off-route" mine but I am pretty sure nobody fielded any in WWII except for the Germans who may (and I say this because I have only heard of it second hand) have rigged a Pzfaust 30/60 on a trip wire to fire flank side across a roadway. We have a similar trick with the LAW when a proper off-route system is unavailable. I hope this gives some insight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zgrose Posted December 21, 2000 Author Share Posted December 21, 2000 Great stuff. I like the gravel idea. Thanks all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Where this "it's possible, I know it" argument fell the last time, was that it was not shown, that mines were buried in pavement during WWII. As a norm. Or at least often enough. Current examples are not valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Can you hide an anti-tank mine on a dirt road. I just lost a Priest to a road mine that I couldn't see. I didn't think you could hide it on a road, but maybe I'm mistaken or confusing it with paved roads. Thanks for any help. ------------------ Only the Lawyer knows what Evil lurks in the minds of men.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 It may be true that I was not alive during WWII but I do know that mines can be placed in a "hardstand" surface. I HAVE SEEN THIS WITH MY OWN EYES!!! Its is neither hard nor all that difficult only time consuming. I am pretty sure they had mine, pick axes, coal grit and clay in WWII, which is about all you need. I sincerly doubt one will find that little nugget of info in any book because in the grand scheme of the war it wasn't that important or was so common that nobody really thought to mention it. CM doesn't have booby traps either and there is plenty of evidence they were used in both the anti-vehicle and anti-pers role. I guess this is leading to a central bone I will pick now. IF IT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE IT PROBABLY WAS! And just because the "grognard" community cannot find it in their "manual libraries" doesn't make a valid option in game play. It's these argument against doing anything ahistorical which really tick me off. Yes, I do believe that one should keep boundaries on some things, like vehicles used, weapons and their capabilities, historic troop qualities but a "slavish" adherance to every facet and mistake that was made during WWII is really silly. If the equipment was available and the capability for an action is plausible then it should be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mayer Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Good point (about if it could have happened it probably did) but the question then is, is it worth it to code for the possibility? If, for instance, some mines were buried in paved roads during WWII (and I'm willing to agree that it probably happened at sometime or another), did it happen often enough to make a difference? Were such occasions common or effective enough to justify including it in the game (where a sort of "zero sum" rule has to apply as to changes and additions and features included)? I'd say no; daisy chains work fine for denying the road to the enemy, and as most mine work in a paved surface would probably leave visible signs anyhow, they achieve about the same effect as placing regular mines on paved roads IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted December 22, 2000 Share Posted December 22, 2000 I never thought they should be put under paved roads, merely laid on top off the roads to deny access. Outside of coding, there is no reason why this shouldnt be so, but it is a moot point since it isnt worth going back in the code to "fix". Far more important things to do with BTS's limited resources. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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