The Singularly MOST Frustrating Thing About CM!

[Talenn]

...and, incidentally the reason why defending is so much harder in CM (at least IMO)....

Ready?

Lack of a HOLD FIRE command!!!!!

For the love of god, I think half of the troops in the game should be shot for breaking fire discipline!! Ok, well, maybe I'm overreacting, but we've all seen the following scene time and time again:

You deploy your troops in a Platoon Line along the edge of a woodline. There is 90-100m of nice open ground in front of your troops followed by a another woodline and a few buildings. PERFECT place for an ambush! I'll just wait until the enemy clears the far treeline and is moving across the open towards my line and BAM! I'll have him in the open!...

Sounds great, right? It is! But UNFORTUNATELY, your numbskull troops open up on the enemy 100m away when they are still IN the opposite treeline and buildings...end result: a long ranged fire fight in which you are probably outnumbered and come off second best...instead of a picture perfect ambush! ARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!

Ok, now I can buy this if I have Green troops or have deployed them out of C&C radius...fine, no problems. But VETERAN TROOPS!? Even Regulars shouldnt be THAT thick! And this is in C&C with a Leader with 'double stealth' bonus. Umm...what the heck are you supposed to do!?!?

I've tried, Hide and I've tried Ambush...no dice. They still start capping off rounds sometimes as far as 110m....even when the chance of a kill is very slight.

IMO, you should have the ability to set a max engagement range for a platoon much the same as a leader generated Ambush point. No, it doesnt have to be foolproof, especially with lesser troops, but my gawd there has to be SOMETHING to prevent the troops from doing this kind of nonsense. In CM2, I intend to have Political Officers or Commisars standing by to execute troops who are quite this dim!

And before folks start quoting this battle and that where people blew and ambush, just let me say that I'm quite sure that there were PLENTY of battles where the ambush DID work as planned.

Anyone have any suggestions on having your troops maintain fire discipline?

Thanx,

Talenn

[Theron]

Talenn,

I know that you said that you tried it, but this is what ambush is for. I have sucessfully hidden troops that don't open fire until the enemy is ~30m away even though they can see them from a further distance. I usually have to set the marker closer than, where I want the ambush. This is because my troops always pop up and fire before the enemy gets to the marker if they can seem them. If you just hide your troops you are taking your chances.

I've tried to keep my troops permanently hidden i.e. let the halftracks pass so I can take out the tanks with fausts. To do this I set the ambush marker away from the passing vechicles. The problem was that they decided to shoot anayways no matter what I did. It is my experience that when your troops can see a target that is 20-30m away they can't stay hidden no matter what you tell them. These troops were regulars and vets so more experinced troops might be able to pull it off.

Theron

[KLilly]

Just to tell you everything works both ways, in a tcp/ip last night my "hiding" zook passed up a 30 mm side shot at a Tiger. Great fire discipline!!

[Talenn]

Theron:

20-30m I can understand. Thats a bit too close for comfort for the guys on the ground and I have no issues with that. 100 meters in COVER, I take issue with! And that situation occurred twice in a single 600 point engagement.

I'll have to give Ambush another try and set it to the center or closer to my side of the open ground and maybe the troops will fire when I want them to. I think a but was in the previous Ambush code? I vaguely remember that being mentioned.

I still think there should be a definable 'engagement range' available to troops in C&C. It would do wonders for the defense in this game IMO.

Talenn

[RobVarak]

I find that as long as the troops are Regular or above, hide and ambush works just fine.

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Rob Varak

Editor

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[2B]

I agree, it works especially well if you have an officer with a good stealth bonus in direct-command of troops hidden inside a structure. If this is the case your troops won't open up until the enemy units are very close indeed. (This is a good way to ambush the enemy with flamethrowers also).

[DEF BUNGIS]

i paid for this and i expect a basic attacking thing to be happenning.

Bridges may be a big problem wiht this but in mnay games ive played its not always the case. Please fix!!! or do somefink.

[Guest MantaRay]

DEF,

May I be the first to say..... What?

Ray

[I/O Error]

Yeah, I second that. Say what?

Anyway, with the hold fire thing, it would not surprise me if:

1.) Their ability to hold fire is HIGHLY dependant on their experience.

and

2.) That they will open fire if the enemy they're waiting for opening fire or sees THEM first.

Both just guesses, but I figure it makes at least some sense, right?

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Honor, Duty, Courage.

Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior...

[DEF BUNGIS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MantaRay:

DEF,

May I be the first to say..... What?

Ray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ray, I couldn't help it.

The CPT Stransky just came out in me.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DEF BUNGIS:

Ray, I couldn't help it.

The CPT Stransky just came out in me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is time you acknowledge your inner STRANSKY, and give it big hug. Once you have done that, give it the boot, and welcome back with the normal people.

On-topic: I don't know what the problem is. Last evening I watched a movie where my esteemed opponent walked a platoon of Fallshirmjaeger into a 30m ambush of two UK para squads. Endresult - next to no casualties for me, his HQ, two squads and one Schreck are dead, the third squad is down to five. Seems to work fine for me.

Maybe the problem is where you place your ambushes - try going a bit deeper into the woods and setting the ambush just outside of them. Ideally the enemy will die so fast that their firepower does not come t play at all, making the distance pretty much irrelevant.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-09-2000).]

[DEF BUNGIS]

Seriously though, even the manual goes into explaining the discipline levels of your troops.

The more disciplined, the better they hold fire.

I am just finishing up a PBEM scenario with all Crack and elite forces.

They do a very good job of knowing when to fire and when to hold. Even when not in a hide or ambush command.

So maybe your best bet it to spend a little extra cash for those expirienced troops.

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The counter-revolution,

people smilling through their tears.

Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years.

[Theron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Maybe the problem is where you place your ambushes - try going a bit deeper into the woods and setting the ambush just outside of them. Ideally the enemy will die so fast that their firepower does not come t play at all, making the distance pretty much irrelevant.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a good idea. It takes advantage of the fact that the Tac AI likes to run for the trees, which will bring panic squads running towards you to die or surrender. If they do deside to run to the "trees" on the other side your troops can eliminate them in the open.

Theron

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Theron:

Thats a good idea. It takes advantage of the fact that the Tac AI likes to run for the trees, which will bring panic squads running towards you to die or surrender. If they do deside to run to the "trees" on the other side your troops can eliminate them in the open.

Theron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had not actually thought about that, but I guess that would work with green troops on the receiving end. My reasoning is that if you are not on the wood-edge, it is far more difficult for you to be spotted, and you are much faster breaking contact if OPFOR brings a tank or two to flush you out.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-09-2000).]

[Jarmo]

It might be the lack of fire discipline is a side effect of another fix.

It used to be that the troops wouldn't break ambush, unless the enemy

would walk right over the marker. Very frustrating, if the enemy

comes from a "Wrong angle".

I assume the marker now has something like 20 meter radius.

The solution: don't place the marker where you wan't your men to start

firing, but a bit closer to your end.

[CATguy]

Think of it this way: You are sitting in a trench or foxhole and the enemy is approaching. Depending on your experience in battle and your bravery you would probably let lead fly well out to 100 meters or sooner so as to keep the enemy away from your position. It takes a very brave and calm soldier to allow the enemy to approach to distances that are considered to close for "comfort"...

[Bruno Weiss]

I have to go down as one of those who find no reason for the lack of, and every reason for the inclusion of, a hold fire command.

Yes, Private Spincter who's always in a crowd might loose his bladder at seeing the enemy, but generally speaking troops tend to follow orders. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been a war, but rather a drunken soccer match. Troops hold fire when order to. Zat simple. The lack of the command, denies a fully available ambush, defense, and selective fire capability.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[David Aitken]

Bruno Weiss wrote:

> I have to go down as one of those who find no reason for the lack of, and every reason for the inclusion of, a hold fire command.

Currently, troops in CM usually obey orders (Hide and Ambush in this case), but when in doubt, they will err on the side of self-preservation.

Men are only ordered to hold fire in specific circumstances – usually to avoid drawing attention to themselves (Hide), or to spring a trap on the enemy (Ambush). They are not ordered to hold fire when the situation is unclear, because what happens if the enemy suddenly materialises nearby? They have no choice but to disobey your order, rendering the order useless. Hold Fire is not a practical command in the CM environment.

David

New map!

[Talenn]

Hey all:

Thanks for the responses. I will experiment more with placing my guys deeper in the woods. I've also had moderate success by facing my guys in the opposite direction until I see the target I want to ambush. It just seems silly and 'gamey' (for lack of a better term) to have to resort to such measures in order to get my troops to hold fire.

As far as the experience thing goes..sure, I agree. I said that above. But IN C&C and with Regular+ troops it should NOT be a trial in order to hold fire until the enemy is out in the open a bit. I could even understand if they had a GREAT shot at 100m or so..ie walking in the open etc, but certainly not initiating a firefight with enemy troops in a woodline 100m away. Not smart, and IMO, not too realistic. I dont think there are that many men out there willing to break orders in order to draw fire from an enemy. Maybe its just me.

Talenn

[Bruno Weiss]

David Aitken wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Men are only ordered to hold fire in specific circumstances – usually to avoid drawing attention to themselves (Hide), or to spring a trap on the enemy (Ambush).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee thanks David, and here I thought rank meant something, particularly in the directing of fire at selective targets and not firing when desiring to avoid incoming fire of superior strength. I didn't realize each soldier just aimed at whatever moved and popped off a round. Glad we cleared that up.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 12-09-2000).]

[Fred]

I've seldom experienced any problems with the fire discipline when using an ambush/hide combo in v.1.05

Maybe this is a problem with the beta version???

If yes, it should be addressed in the final.

Fred

[Bruno Weiss]

I dunno about Talenn's post, but I was referring to situations where the enemy has superior firepower, is at some distance and yet my telling the targeted unit to cancel target and hide does absolutely nothing. They just keep popping off rounds at infantry nearby to armor units that ofcourse plaster them with return fire. This isn't some thing I've seen go on all the time, but when it happens it's really frustrating. Which, was the topic.

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 12-09-2000).]

[David Aitken]

Bruno Weiss wrote:

> I didn't realize each soldier just aimed at whatever moved and popped off a round. Glad we cleared that up.

I accept what you're saying, but it is difficult to apply to CM. The game does not give you the level of control of a squad leader. You are the commander, and you give orders to every squad on the battlefield, but the concept of the game is that the squads may not, or may not be able to, carry out your orders as you intended.

The point I am making is, what happens if you give a 'hold fire' order to a squad, hit GO, and then the situation changes and the squad is overwhelmed by enemy infantry? Should they continue to hold fire?

When you Hide a squad, you are saying 'hold fire and conceal yourselves'. When you set up an Ambush, you are saying 'hold fire so we can spring a trap'. But a Hold Fire command would be to say 'hold fire because I say so'. When you're relying on the squad to interpret your orders, this kind of command is just asking for trouble.

You already have the ability to "(direct) fire at selective targets and not (fire) when desiring to avoid incoming fire of superior strength". But squads will not sit there and take fire without handing it back. If the enemy can see them, the enemy will fire, and your squads will return fire, so the simple solution is to keep your men out of LOS of the enemy.

David

[Lacky]

Infantry squads opening up fire at 350 meters is a waste of ammo. It happens a lot. During a good size battle, I'm often trying to hide my units in order to shut down their ammo consumption. It's ultra-annoying to watch them burn ammo at targets 300+ meters away.

When employing veterans or better, my teeth grind when they pivot from a close target to fire at some _remote_ target all the way across the battlefield. I wish my Commander could make a standing order to not fire at the enemy if the enemy is farther than X distance. This problem is exploitable by the attacking side of any conflict.

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If the enemy can see them, the enemy will fire, and your squads will return fire, so the simple solution is to keep your men out of LOS of the enemy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely this is a problem with the engine!

Why can't two groups of opposing soldiers face each other at a distance without them wasting ammo!