PatAWilson Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 Much of the Tigers rep is based on taking out Sherman 75s and Cromwells, which were the most common type available to the Allies. Against these types the Tiger is one hell of a tough nut to crack. OTOH if you are paying a scenario that has a bunch of Fireflys or even 76s Tigers can be killed. Even against these types the Tiger can be very effective, just keep the range as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 However Them Tigers are sure going to be Fun in CM-2 and CM-3. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Lakowski Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 Armor estimates Tiger I tank. 100mm main front turret plus a mantle that is 20cm at the mantle edge ,then 12cm to 10cm thick , then thickening to ~20cm near the gun.Since the mantle covers about >90% of the front turret any projectile will have to punch through both plates or the thicker section of the mantle. Now if you space plates the net resistance goes down , depending on the airgap, which is 2-10cm or 1 projectile diameter at best. In test with such a small gap the resistance is atleast 97% of the solid LOS thickness , in addition the T/d would reduce the armor effectivenss to ~ 95% , from 30° angle. Tiger -1 armor was of high quality with hardness ~ 280BHN,Thomas Jentz list the mantle thicknes at 100-200 mm .So our Tiger 1 should offer atleast 10cm+10cm x 0.95= 19cm to 30cm LOS thickness which would make it impervious to any WW-II projectile. But we all know the 122 could penetrate the mantle area @30° off angle out to 500m range, which means straight on it should penetrate at >1000 meters [ I think Valera is now claiming 1800m?]. The 122 WWII AP shot could do 160mm vertical armor at 1000 meters and maybe 180mm @ 500m. Looking at Valeras page on russian guns I see the CP=142mm'Certified penetration'[which means 80% of shots will reach this penetration]and 133mm @ 1.5kms.The difference between the CP and max penetration is like 200m/s striking velocity or 5-6cm increase in penetration [for a 3-4 inch gun]. That means the values are <PRE> Hits 80% Ballistic limit ~5%[MAX] 1000m 142mm 16-17cm 19-20cm 1500m 133mm 15-16cm 18-19cm </PRE> Enough to exceed the Tigers front turret armor @ over 1.5km from straight on. This implies the 'effective armor' had to be >15cm . I remember Robert Livingston told me it was about 150-160mm including the mantle. So the 30cm LOS thickness near the edge is cut in half while the 20cm near the gun is down 0.75.I remember Robert thought the free edge effect reduce the front turret armor to atleast 70%. This happens to ALL TANKS So whats the ballistic limit on the 76mm & 75mm APC shots ? [This message has been edited by Paul Lakowski (edited 08-02-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 For 2 years the Tiger1 dominated tank warefare. it earned its reputation on the Eastren Front, vs T-34's & L8r in Tunisa against Shermans etc. The 1st Allied tank to challenge the Tiger's dominace was the Soviet IS-2, who's armor protection & main gun were on par & superior in some aspects to the Tiger1. By late 1944 with the appearence in numbers of the 6 & 17-pounder with APDS ammunion & 76mm & 90mm guns with APCR-T, the Tiger1's dominace was over. Till the end of the war the Tiger1 remained a very dangerous opponet, to be respected,& feared, but its days of operateing with near impunity were over, something Tiger crews generaly learned the hard way. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 *****Retroactive Spoiler for the faint of heart. G14 classification applies. All names have been changed to protect the innocent.. . . . . . I had trouble with the viller bocage scenario until I figured out how to keep Wittman alive (against the AI). Barring some fluke like getting immobilized on turn one by a .50 cal on a HT, Wittmann is best served by charging at the enemy armor. Part of the problem with the scenario was the default FOW being set to none and the tendency of Wittmann to engage those pesky crews (that he could see because FOW was off). By hunting down that road where the allied tanks are making smoke to hide themselves Wittmann is much more likely to stay "on task" and kill the armor that is there before reinforcements for either side arrive. As for having lots of Pz IVs being better than an equivalent point group of Tigers, one need only play the Villers Bocage operation to learn to hate the Pz IV. At the end of the operation I still had 5 operational Tigers but all but one Pz IVs had been knocked out. And you might have noticed that after dropping bombs on tigers, those jabos can still kill a Pz IV with MGs (and they won't disturb the Tigers any more). [This message has been edited by RMC (edited 08-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 Sound advice, and real tankers must know every crewman's name at Villers-Bocage, but you might wish to put a SPOILER ALERT before such an explicit post, for others. Sorry to squawk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 SPOILER! You must possess G14 clearance to read this post. All others will be terminated. . . . . . . I didn't think I was spoiling anything. The scenario briefing clearly states that Wittman is the man. I thought I was general enough with the idea that Wittmann must go forward to save himself. This also presents opportunities later in the game if he is successful. But then those odd things can happen like getting immobilized on turn one and then waiting for death. Or the CM classic "gun hit" that ends the scenario before its time. CM just isn't set up to really make a scenario revolved around one special guy. It would have to allow him to dismount and move to another vehicle as he really did. In the villers bocage op, Wittmann sat out the first battle after getting immobilized early on. He did great stuff in the second battle before getting hosed in the third. I think Unterscharfuehrer Brendt was my hero that day. If you play this, remember "There is always another Firefly." I can't count the number of times I thought I could advance because I had finally killed off the Fireflies buzzing about. Each time I was informed by a front turret/hull penetration on oneof my "beautiful tanks." When it ws over, I had destroyed/knocked out 156 allied vehicles. Too bad there's not a more detailed breakout. Lots of those vehicles were kamikaze bren carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish: WOW!!! Mike has the trademark for "**** happens" Come to think of it, i owe you money. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Cash, Travelers Cheques in $1000 denominations, and electronic transfers are cordially accepted. Michael (laughing all the way to the bank) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead: However Them Tigers are sure going to be Fun in CM-2 and CM-3. Tony<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Until the SU-100s show up, along with the IS-1s and 2s.... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 Wittmann gets all the credit, but it was his long-time crew-mate Bobby Wohl who did all the shooting. And everybody knows what happened to Wittmann when Wohl was finally assigned command of his own Tiger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCIPIO AFRICANUS Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 Interesting....What happened to Wittmann ? Couldn´t have been too bad since he did the Villers-Bocage blasting with SOWA´s tank and crew [turett No. 222], because his own tank [turett 205] suffered a mechanical breakdown and he had to do a last-minute-switch to SOWA´s tank as Tiger #205 had a defective engine that morning at 13th June 1944. Just in case you don´t know. In Normandy Bobby Woll wasn´t Wittmanns gunner anymore. Woll was already Tank Commander, he was Wittmanns gunner in Russia in 1943/early 1944 and earned the Knight´s Cross in January 1944 for exceptional performance as a gunner of Wittmann, when Wittmann earned the Oak Leaves on 30 January 1944. ------------------ Alea jacta est. Delenda Carthago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 During the historic Villars Bocage battle the British vehicles were parked nose to tail along the road, with many of the crews having a "brew up" of tea outside their vehicles (a wee bit arrogant). Throw in the general shock and panic of vehicles milling about, desperately trying to get out of the way, and you can see how Witmann had a field day. Historically Witmann went down the farm road on the right and worked his way down the British column. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>During the historic Villars Bocage battle the British vehicles were parked nose to tail along the road, with many of the crews having a "brew up" of tea outside their vehicles (a wee bit arrogant)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL! Yeah giving the term "brew up" a completely new sense Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 Helge, If I am not mistaken, the Brit slang for making tea, "brewing up" was applied to knocked out tanks later. I.E: the term was first applied to making tea and not to tanks going up in flames. Kinda like the germans calling the Sherman "Tommycooker" because it had Tommies in it and not calling the Brit soldiers Tommies because they were the guys in the "Tommycooker." Make sense? [This message has been edited by RMC (edited 08-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 huh huh huh nyhee hehe hehuh huh huh Simon said "Juxtaposition." huh huh uh nyuhhu huh uhuh. ------------------ A Journey of a thousand miles starts with a single gunshot wound to the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 Bob, Yes, makes sense. I should have said: Wittmann gave the term "brew-(ing) up" a new sense. <G> I´m well aware that the meaning to prepare a cup of hot water (tea) is the older, original meaning. Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anyway if anyones interested on how the Tiger 1 actualy stood up to various guns, Ie, 6Pdr, 17pdr, 25-pdr , APCBC, HE, APDS rounds etc I recommend getting the refrence I listed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, Tom Jentz has written THE REFERENCE WORK on the TIGER I/II family with his 3 volumes. Add the Spielberger book and you know all what is known about these tanks. I strongly recommend to get everything which is published by Tom Jentz [of course if you can afford it]. All books are excellent references on german tanks and the "Panzertruppe" itself. Some extracts of his comparision charts about Tiger I/II can be found here: http://www.leibstandarte.uni.cc/ Direct link to the charts is: http://redrival.com/leibstandarte/survive.htm BTW: In his PANTHER volume Jentz provides the reader with the same love to detail information and demystified some misconceptions concerning the Panther II. Extracts from his Panther book can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther.htm Direct link is: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted August 3, 2000 Share Posted August 3, 2000 How about if we just borrow your copies. Don't worry I'll give them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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