Status of Svinets-1 and Svinets-2

[John Kettler]

There has been some controversy regarding giving the Russian side any type of Svinets KE round in CMBS. Yet Below The Turret Ring, in October, 2016 published a post asserting the Russians have Svinets in production, which if the Svinets-2, is DU. The blog rates this as "possible, not probable" and notes these rounds are usable only on later model T-90s having larger diameter autoloaders. Thus, the T-72B3s being deployed won't be able to shoot it. It also says current photos shows Russian tanks are still running around with 1980s vintage ammo. I don't get too worked up over this, for there can be quite a difference between the day-to-day ammo and the war load. Real world case in point. Brother George spent years during the Cold War in a Bradley CFV covering the Meinegen Gap in the FRG. The stock TOW in his unit was the 5-inch with standoff probe ITOW, but he was told and shown a 6" warhead TOW 2 and informed "if you ever see one of these show up, it's war." Would add that not only was the warhead bigger, but it was double trumpet and had a DU liner to maximize penetration and BAE. The Russians, per former  Russian T-55 company CO and defector GRU major and spook Suvorov/Rezun and US experience, are meticulous about their antitank weapon security. For example, when they live fired ATGMs in training, the entire area around the tank had tarps and every scrap was carefully policed up. Contrast that with what the Russians viewed as insane NATO security practices at Grafenwoehr, FRG, where overshots went into the woods on the far side and were retrieved by a farmer and sold to the gleeful Russians. This guy was so valuable a GRU agent Brezhnev knew of him! I've written about this extensively in the case of HEAT ammo (for the PT-76) with its GPW era 76.2 mm T-34's gun) which was obsolete when provided to the Egyptians, was captured by the Israelis  in 1972 and not in US hands until 1984, yet was found capable of piercing the brand new Abrams in 1984 because it shared the same basic armor design as the canceled T95 MBT. There is, therefore, strong reason to believe the good stuff is not in the tanks but will be should Russia face the Abrams. Though I have no direct information, I would additionally suggest the Russians have something better for their T-72B3s than what we see today. Makes perfect sense, and the Russians, when it comes to their weapons for land warfare in particular, are about as pragmatic as they come.

http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.se/2016/10/russia-is-mass-producing-improved.html

Would one of our Germanophones please contact the mysterious m.m. via his site and ask he post some sort of bio, since the announcement of the blog says people know him already? I have no idea who he is, but he seems to be extremely knowledgeable, great at finding the juiciest of grog material and able to "sift the tea leaves" with great discernment when it comes to testing various AFV claims.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited January 22, 2017 by John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Drat! Wrote 1972 for Yom Kippur War date. Should've been 1973 but didn't catch it in time. Also, ref bio request, please have him put it right at the top of home page, together with an About regarding the site. Thanks.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited January 22, 2017 by John Kettler

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, John Kettler said:

Thus, the T-72B3s being deployed won't be able to shoot it.

Т-72B3 has newer 2A46M-5 gun and upgraded autoloader, so it also capable for Svinets-2 ammunition. I think, if Russia really produces new APFSDS, its going to storages on case of "big war", but not in military units, which for current tasks still using older ammunitions. All photos from Donbas shows both separatists and Russian tankers using mostly Zakolka and some rarely Mango ammunition. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Haiduk

[John Kettler]

Haiduk,

Wasn't aware there was room for a bigger autoloader in there. Thought the ability to increase autoloader diameter was denied by hard limit  of internal hull width. If they got around this somehow, would love to see the schematics and photos, especially with the earlier T-72 autoloader as a comparison.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ikalugin]

Just like the ammo for the new 125mm gun it is in production and service. For the Svinets series you would need a modified autoloader, with T72B3s (and the upcomming T90Ms/T90AMs) modified for such ammo. T80BVs/T80Us can be modified for the longer ammo as well, in fact it is much easier to modify them and it could probably be done in units (T64s and T80s in general actually).

But it would take years to displace the ammo used in units in peacetime. Nor are we likely to see it elsewhere unless something changes drastically (massive third party intervention into one of the ongoing conflicts or something like Ukraine fielding Oplots in quantity), as the current likely opposition uses cold war vintage armour (legacy T64/72/80 mods) which can be penetrated by the cold war vintage ammo.

Edited January 23, 2017 by ikalugin