Off map artillery response times

[Sailor Malan2]

I am concerned that this has probably been raised and discussed before, but the artillery response times seem very screwy. I have not been able to find where they are discussed (searched and looked manually for a year back). I am aware they may have been adjusted for playability, but if so they have not been done consistently, If they haven't been adjusted, they are way way off. For example (in game from a few quick refresher tests):

British FO calling in 25pdr battery: 11 minutes for an unregistered (no TRP target). 

British Non-FO (Btn HQ) same unit: 14 mins for no TRP. 9 mins for TRP

German FO, 75mm howitzer: 10 mins (no TRP)

US FO 105mm: 9 mins no TRP, 4 mins (TRP)

Now, I have been reading up artillery doctrine and practices. US was fast and responsive (fair enough). but British RA had one mantra above all else: speed. It is generally accepted they could get shells landing in an opportunity target in 2 minutes or less (although there is a mistaken view that this was always at the expense of accuracy). Now, we could count this as spotting round times, but this would still give a fire for effect in 4 mins at worst I would say (for specialist FOs), with no TRP. With a TRP it should be 2 mins. As a test of their altered systems (based on desert experience) in 1942, they got 144 guns firing on an opportunity target in 5 mins! Germans were definitely slower on unregistered fires, but probably no slower on TRP (or only a little)

In addition, the effect of multiple units (batteries or sections) of different sized (and hence place in the command chain) is not modelled at all. British could add artillery very very fast. (hence the test above, but this was not a one off - outside of the scope of CM, but they could get AGRA level - ARMY LEVEL artillery concentrations going in c30min on a new target). Thus FOs should be able to combine batteries with almost no penatly... maybe +1 min per extra. Search for British Artillery Mike, Uncle, Victor and Yoke concentrations (or see http://nigelef.tripod.com/maindoc.htm)

US could also do the same, but the FDC decided what to fire not the FO (as the British) so there should be a slightly longer addition to the response time.

The Germans effectively couldn't add artillery (beyond the organic or direct support unit) to an opportunity fire, and so should have huge delays even if allowed to do it.

If the artillery responses have been nerfed for playabilty, someone forgot the US. If they haven't been, how's about an overhaul (or at least a tweak) of the delays please.

 

(sources can be supplied on request).

 

I will be looking in CMFI, and CMRT sometime too.

 

Edit: sorry, meant to put this in CMBN but would still be valid here I think.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Sailor Malan2

[MOS:96B2P]

On 1/8/2017 at 3:21 PM, Sailor Malan2 said:

I am concerned that this has probably been raised and discussed before, but the artillery response times seem very screwy. I have not been able to find where they are discussed (searched and looked manually for a year back). I am aware they may have been adjusted for playability, but if so they have not been done consistently, If they haven't been adjusted, they are way way off. <Snip>

I'm not an artillery FFE grog I just note what the game mechanics are and then use them.  So I'm not sure how accurate the FFE times are to RL in WWII however there is a fairly noticeable range of times influenced by many variables.  Some of these variables are the experience of the spotter and the artillery.  The type of artillery. If an FO is used or a HQ.  If a TRP is used or not.  If the spotter is taking any suppression.  The spotter's line of sight for spotting rounds. (In CMBS the use of a dedicated fire support vehicle also matters & UAVs etc.)  Just what I can think of, probably missed some.

For example a US conscript HQ spotting for a regular 105mm howitzer with no TRP is about 16 minutes.

An elite FO spotting for the same regular 105mm howitzer with a TRP is about 3 minutes.

With this wide range of time maybe the RL WWII average is somewhere in that range?        

[Rinaldi]

The answer is....it really depends. Getting medium howitzers on target, especially in a RCT or Taskforce would've been relatively quick as you can contact the battalion subordinated to you and could often order a fires plan rather than request one. But even with an embedded FO going to Division (for the Germans) or Corps for heavier support could take you upwards of half an hour to get things organized and approved - often more. Getting artillery 'on the fly' was a difficult thing and most times a fire plan, even a rudimentary one, was established and approved well before a unit was in attack position.

I do agree that sometimes a TRP FFE should be much faster, since the TRP is the best thing we have to simulating an attacker's organized fireplan, but I rarely complain because the enemy never sees the timed barrage coming.

Since, to my knowledge, CM doesn't really model having a battalion subordinated to you in the manner I'm speaking (even with the prebuilt Taskforces we see in Black Sea) , I've always accepted artillery in game as an abstracted middle ground. Besides, as the attacker, you rarely feel like the artillery is too sluggish when it makes half a platoon combat ineffective

Edited January 11, 2017 by Rinaldi
Added sentence