TOE Questions for Bagration time period.

[GhostRider3/3]

I know everyone is anxious for CM FB, but was inquiring on some TOE for the time period of Bagration.

1.  Jagdpanther.  Supposedly it entered the theatre late 1944, some say between September and October, Still waiting on a couple books I ordered regarding the Jagdpanther, does anyone know if this is correct, and I take it like a lot of things will be added in the future.

2. Jaeger units?  supposedly they were extremely SMG heavy after Operation Citadel.. is this accurate?  Honestly I rarely use specialized units as of now, but am experimenting with Fusiler and other units just to see the combat effectiveness in regards to their endurance under fire and capabilities of suppressing other units.  (very relative depending on situation)

3.Sturmpanzer Brummbär:    regards  I know only in small numbers but I believe 2 units were allocated to the Eastern front.   one of which was Sturmpanzer-Kompanie z.b.V. 218.  Although maybe they have plans to add them later.  Just curious.

[kevinkin]

Not sure if this helps. But here goes related to the Jagdpanther:

"First Jagdpanthers were issued to schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 559 and 654 and reached the frontline in Western Europe in June of 1944. Only 654th had full compliment of 42 vehicles, while 559th had only 10 to 14 vehicles. Majority of Jagdpanthers produced saw service on the Eastern Front, while only single battalion (schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung 654) saw service during Normandy Battles in the Summer of 1944. In preparations for the Ardennes Offensive, the largest number ever of Jagdpanthers was assembled, including vehicles transferred to the Western Front from the Eastern Front to take part in the offensive. Some 51 Jagdpanther in six battalions took part in the fighting in December of 1944."

Hopefully the books you are waiting for will detail specific East Front units and battles they were part of. i know I would interested. 

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerjager-v-jagdpanther-sd-kfz-173.htm

 

 

 

[JasonC]

Jagdpanthers were not in time for Bagration in the east.  Fighting in Poland in the fall was their first use in the theater.  Brummbars had an early batch at Kursk but most were lost by the fall 1943 fighting at the latest.  Only a few small units after that had them, they were never an item of normal equipment, always in their own heavy assault gun units.  The offensive line cracking role they were intended for also just didn't come up.  There was one small unit of them in the west for the Bulge I believe.

As for German infantry types, there were divisional differences and battalion differences.  The Jaeger designation was for light infantry divisions, originally intended as basically forest units akin to Gebirgsjaegers as mountain light infantry.  They had a smaller 6 battalion organization from the beginning, which the rest of the Heer infantry migrated to.  They originally had lighter artillery and fewer heavy divisional attachments, less in the way of motorization, and were expected to get jobs in tougher terrain than normal infantry.

But in practice there was little difference between a normal Heer infantry division, or from mid 1944 on a Volksgrenadier division, and a Jaeger division, than those original plans suggest.m the Heer divisions were remarkably non uniform themselves.  And the Jaegers tended to get full artillery complements if expected to fight in the line, as most were.  Really, the Jaegers were distinct only through the end of 1942, getting mountain infantry jobs and the like through that offensive period.  Once the Germans were on the defensive, they got whatever part if the line needed another infantry division and weren't used any differently.

Fusiliers, on the other hand, was in practice a battalion level designation, sometimes a regiment, never a division.  It was frequently used interchangably with "grenadier" at the regiment level, with no actual difference in the units.  That just let the division refer to their two regiments as "the grenadier regiment" or "the fusilier regiment".  

But the most common use was to designate a divisional leg infantry recon battalion as the fusilier battalion, the only one in the division in those cases.  As such they were outside a regimental organization, and therefore had fewer heavy weapons and attachments.  They were a seventh purely light infantry battalion in those cases.  They could be given advanced and rear guard duties when the division changed its frontage, were easier to truck lift (not permanently, but as a ond time move e.g.) or sometimes to supply with bicycles as an area reserve, and the like.  The equipment difference that mattered for that wasn't small arms, it was not having any infantry gun or PAK companies attached and potentially weighing the leg infantry down.

These designations were ways of having a unit lighter than regular line infantry, in other words.  Not a way of having more elite or shock troops or anything like that.

Edited February 12, 2016 by JasonC

[GhostRider3/3]

"First Jagdpanthers were issued to schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 559 and 654 and reached the frontline in Western Europe in June of 1944. Only 654th had full compliment of 42 vehicles, while 559th had only 10 to 14 vehicles. Majority of Jagdpanthers produced saw service on the Eastern Front, while only single battalion (schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung 654) saw service during Normandy Battles in the Summer of 1944. In preparations for the Ardennes Offensive, the largest number ever of Jagdpanthers was assembled, including vehicles transferred to the Western Front from the Eastern Front to take part in the offensive. Some 51 Jagdpanther in six battalions took part in the fighting in December of 1944."

Hopefully the books you are waiting for will detail specific East Front units and battles they were part of. i know I would interested. 

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerjager-v-jagdpanther-sd-kfz-173.htm

 

 

 

Yes that helps, waiting for some books by Walther Spielberger and Thomas L. Jentz, Plus Operation Blue Coat, as I believe 3 JagdPanthers held up some Churchill's for a bit.

[GhostRider3/3]

Thanks Jason C, for your in depth response.  There is a lot of information out there, and one needs to disseminate from fact and  all the crazy info out there.  For some reason I had the impression (from another site) that the German's still were using "Jaeger" regiments or such as shock troops, and that they had more automatic weapons per squad then the Rifle Squads of the 'Panzer, Pzgdr, and regular Infantry Divisions.  Which now sounds a bit out there for 44.  I do understand the Gebirgsjaeger units, and was unfamiliar with the Fusilier implementation.  Honestly I had been more into Armored vehicles and other things, but ever since playing this game, have been wanting to understand the implementation of German Infantry.   Know any good books JasonC?

[JasonC]

Mathew Cooper's "the German Army", Jason Pipes and his Feldgrau website, Ketterling's various books on specific campaigns with good OOBs - those would be my source suggestions.  FWIW.

[GhostRider3/3]

Mathew Cooper's "the German Army", Jason Pipes and his Feldgrau website, Ketterling's various books on specific campaigns with good OOBs - those would be my source suggestions.  FWIW.

Thanks again Jason.

[Cuirassier]

Jason,

I think you mean Zetterling?

[JasonC]

Cuirassier - Yes I did, thanks for the correction.  I was thinking in particular of his books on Kursk and Normandy.