Force heavier bursts?

[Alexey K]

I have quite interesting situaton: my BMP has sneaked behind Bradley  and is engaging it from the flank.

But stupid BMP crew shoots only few rounds of 30 mm and then wait for some time to fire another burst.

Bradley is thick skinned beast and has high probability of surviving several penetrations from BMP cannon.

So it just swallows rounds and destroys BMP.

 

I suppose that prolonged burst would have much higher probability of taking out Bradley before it can fire back.

But how to make my crew do that?

Edited February 13, 2015 by Alexey K

[Melchior]

You can't? When units in the game identify each other they typically do everything possible to destroy each other. Unless the unit is suppressed, crippled, or just totally over matched (infantry team vs a tank) they attack with what they have. What kind of order would one give to your BMP anyway? "No no no not regular kill, SUPER kill!" 

 

You setup the circumstances of an engagement and then hope for the best. Fighting is the troops' job. 

[gunnersman]

I have quite interesting situaton: my BMP has sneaked behind Bradley  and is engaging it from the flank.

But stupid BMP crew shoots only few rounds of 30 mm and then wait for some time to fire another burst.

Bradley is thick skinned beast and has high probability of surviving several penetrations from BMP cannon.

So it just swallows rounds and destroys BMP.

 

I suppose that prolonged burst would have much higher probability of taking out Bradley before it can fire back.

But how to make my crew do that?

How long is "sometime"?  Long enough for your BMP gunner to reload?  It is unusual for the AI to only shoot a few rounds and then pause for too long. 

 

However...

It depends on the range as well. If the target is far aways It seems that the AI will shoot some ranging shots upon the first few shots and then once it is determined the shots are hitting their mark, the following bursts will be longer.  But that is only my observation.

[Vanir Ausf B]

How long is "sometime"? Long enough for your BMP gunner to reload?

That's my guess as well.

[Alexey K]

How long is "sometime"?  Long enough for your BMP gunner to reload?  It is unusual for the AI to only shoot a few rounds and then pause for too long. 

 

However...

It depends on the range as well. If the target is far aways It seems that the AI will shoot some ranging shots upon the first few shots and then once it is determined the shots are hitting their mark, the following bursts will be longer.  But that is only my observation.

 

BMP-2 gun doesn't need to be reloaded. It is fed from two belts containing all rounds BMP carry. 

 

Range is ~500m, all rounds hit target. The problem is that BMP fires 5-7 rounds in first burst and then waits for few seconds. That is enought for Bradley to face is with turret/and or hull. Since that BMP is doomed. 

[Michael Emrys]

Is this a single instance or does it happen consistently this way? What were the ratings for the BMP crew, i.e., their experience, motivation, and leadership numbers? Without this kind of information it is impossible to even guess if it is a bug or missed design or just a random s*** happens.

 

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Ok, I tested this and I see what you mean. There may be some issues here but I don't think the burst fire is one of them.

 

If you watch videos of BMP-2s in combat or even training exercises, firing a burst of two or three shots then pausing for a few seconds is normal. In fact, from what I have seen their most commonly used mode of fire is single shots. Autocannons in general are not accurate when fired rapidly. I have read that the BMP-2 also has a problem with fumes building up in the turret. You just don't see BMP-2 gunners laying down long streams of continuous fire.

 

The ability of vehicles to whip around to face off-axis threats is a factor. Most modern turreted vehicles have very fast turrets and can rotate their hulls in-place at a similar rate. CMBS certainly does model this. Too much, IMO. Unfortunately, AFVs in the game have instant reaction time in most circumstances. In previous CM games the hull rotation speed was artificially slowed to compensate for this, as well as for other factors, but for Black Sea the decision was made to allow AFVs to rotate their hulls at near realistic max speed. I think this was a mistake, but it is what it is.

 

But the biggest problem the BMP-2 has is that its weapons are just not very effective against the Bradly. Its 30mm cannon will sometimes penetrate the Brad even from the front, but it doesn't have much after armor effect. I think this is because the CM engine places a lot of emphasis on retained energy to determine after armor effects and in many cases the 30mm is just barely penetrating. On the flip side, the Bradley;s 25mm cannon goes through the BMP-2 effortlessly.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[whitehot78]

Ok, I tested this and I see what you mean. There may be some issues here but I don't think the burst fire is one of them.

 

If you watch videos of BMP-2s in combat or even training exercises, firing a burst of two or three shots then pausing for a few seconds is normal. In fact, from what I have seen their most commonly used mode of fire is single shots. Autocannons in general are not accurate when fired rapidly. I have read that the BMP-2 also has a problem with fumes building up in the turret. You just don't see BMP-2 gunners laying down long streams of continuous fire.

 

The ability of vehicles to whip around to face off-axis threats is a factor. Most modern turreted vehicles have very fast turrets and can rotate their hulls in-place at a similar rate. CMBS certainly does model this. Too much, IMO. Unfortunately, AFVs in the game have instant reaction time in most circumstances. In previous CM games the hull rotation speed was artificially slowed to compensate for this, as well as for other factors, but for Black Sea the decision was made to allow AFVs to rotate their hulls at near realistic max speed. I think this was a mistake, but it is what it is.

 

But the biggest problem the BMP-2 has is that its weapons are just not very effective against the Bradly. Its 30mm cannon will sometimes penetrate the Brad even from the front, but it doesn't have much after armor effect. I think this is because the CM engine places a lot of emphasis on retained energy to determine after armor effects and in many cases the 30mm is just barely penetrating. On the flip side, the Bradley;s 25mm cannon goes through the BMP-2 effortlessly.

But the op talked about engaging the brad from the side.  The 30mm on the bmp should pen it rather easily, at least that's what happens to me in similar scenarios. I noticed that when IFV engage themselves in cannon fire it's normally a matter about who shoots first. 

The american bushmaster cannon seems to have an advantage at longer ranges; nonetheless what happens to me is that both the IFVs can penetrate the other frontally - the small bursts the op talked about have always been enough to disable the M2, as far as I played BS.

 

The lighter 2a72 cannon on BTRs and  mtlbs  seems to be having more problems in defeating the brad from all sides, which should be realistic.

Edited February 14, 2015 by whitehot78

[Vanir Ausf B]

But the op talked about engaging the brad from the side.  The 30mm on the bmp should pen it rather easily, at least that's what happens to me in similar scenarios.

From the side it does penetrate fairly consistently, but it rarely knocks the vehicle out with one burst.

I have not done extensive testing on this, but I did do one run of 10 1v1s with the Bradly starting out side-on to the BMPs and buttoned up. Most of the Brads were able to pop smoke and retreat after taking hits. After 2 turns two Brads and one BMP were dead. Several of the surviving Brads had extensive systems damage.

The OP was probably a little unlucky to lose his BMP. If the Brad is buttoned they usually don't spot the BMPs right away.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Alexey K]

Yeah, putting BMP against M2 in 1 vs 1 scenario is not fair game. After all, M2 is twice as heavy and is more a tank than IFV by Soviet standards.

 

I've just managed to kill APS-protected Bradley with three BMP and ATGM team. That was quite funny engagement

[Alexey K]

From the side it does penetrate fairly consistently, but it rarely knocks the vehicle out with one burst.

I have not done extensive testing on this, but I did do one run of 10 1v1s with the Bradly starting out side-on to the BMPs and buttoned up. Most of the Brads were able to pop smoke and retreat after taking hits. After 2 turns two Brads and one BMP were dead. Several of the surviving Brads had extensive systems damage.

The OP was probably a little unlucky to lose his BMP. If the Brad is buttoned they usually don't spot the BMPs right away.

 

I've tried this engagement ~10 times.

Every time BMP got all it's rounds hit and penetrate M2 side armour.

Every time BMP was spotted only after it successfully put whole burst into M2.

Once M2 was neturalized by destroying engine. All other times M2 got non-critical damage (like TOW or optics damage) and managed to fire back and destroy BMP.